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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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TomN
.300 member


Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
72 Kodiak
      #222211 - 23/12/12 04:32 AM

Took the Kodiak out yesterday and did a little shooting started over with loading its still crossing but only about 1 inch appart left and right and 1/2 inch up and down in a group of arown 3 inches this at 50 yards load was 100 hundred grains of 2F and patched ball. My cousin told me to just go up 5 grains at a time to see if I could get to uncross but I ran out of balls. checking that the one hundred grain load was repetable and it was. I also shot two bullets that came from a NIE mold they are 720 grains or a little more with the same 100 grain lode they wrer right to the right and left to left about 5 inchs appart and just about level I didn't load both at the same time loaded the rignt and shot it then the left. I think I could get them to shoot togerher if I have a mold to cast more but I would have to make sure that they wouldn't slip forward from shooting the right barrell frist. I do think that I will keep working with the balls for now as I know that they will not move when shot>
Tom N


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Idahoshooter
.275 member


Reged: 27/10/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: TomN]
      #222220 - 23/12/12 05:56 AM

Increasing the powder charge will make the round balls cross even more. You need to reduce the powder charge to eliminate the crossing shots. Personally, since 100 grains is a fairly light load for that caliber, I would try a different brand of powder, or try some Fg before I reduced the charge. You will have to vary your powder charge more than 5 grains to notice any change in regulation, I would try 10-20 grain increments.

Greg


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39201
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: TomN]
      #222243 - 23/12/12 12:01 PM

Quote:

Took the Kodiak out yesterday and did a little shooting started over with loading its still crossing but only about 1 inch apart left and right and 1/2 inch up and down in a group of around 3 inches this at 50 yards load was 100 hundred grains of 2F and patched ball.




Not a bad group already and very usable for short range hunting even if crossing. But look to the previous posts advice.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: TomN]
      #222245 - 23/12/12 12:16 PM

I found with my Kodiak, that increasing the powder charge, not only uncrossed the balls, but made them shoot level as well.

I am glad the slugs shoot too poorly to repeat, and that you will be shooting round balls. I would be concerned about losing my left hand when the left barrel blows. It will probably happen, sooner or later - BLAM!

In the 19 century, slugs did not become popular for heavy game until after breech loaders were developed. thus, with crimping (just look at the crimps they actually used!) so the slug was sure to stay on the powder due to that haeavy crimping and the bullets themselves being oversize to the rifling, could not migrate up the bore.

In India as well as Africa, the large bore round balls, if hardened were found to do just fine. Indeed, with only 4 1/2 to 5 drams of powder, a hardened 14 bore ball (merely 470gr.) would penetrate "Through and through an elephant's head" - THAT was Samuel Baker, by the by (way).

A 1 1/8 ounce (492gr.) (13 bore hardened) or more round ball, hardened or well over 500gr. if soft, will kill any game to be found on this continent and the hard ones, all in Africa, as well.
Tom -
My Kodiak .58 crossed badly at 50 yards - by 2" and shot to different elevations, LEFT HIGH, RIGHT LOW both off by 3" difference as well, when using a mere 80gr. 2F. Knowing this, I was able, offhand to put a right and left into the bullseye at 50 yards. shooting offhand but that 'trick' or 'dodge' used by some gun makers of the 1800's according to Forsyth, was only that, a scam to make the barrels appear to be regulated properly.

I would not want to have to think about where the balls actually were going to strike at whatever range the game was and hold off for that error. YUKO!

Increasing the charge to 100gr. 2F GOEX, both barrels, rights then lefts, shot into a 1" group off the bags, ie: crossing to shoot together, held as I do when shooting off the bench with guns to make the impact the same as offhand, gripping the forend or barrel or barrels with my left hand, resting the back of that hand on the bag, at 50yards - no rear bag.

Increasing the charge further to 110gr., the barrels shot parallel - perfect regulation. I've shot this rifle at long range, out to 250yards in the summer, fall and at 100yards in the winter and the single sight hits centre, left or right - I love shooting trail walks with this rifle - a right-clang, then a quick left-clang again. it's lots of fun, but hard on the powder and lead & cap supply. It's easy to go through 80 to 100 shots in a single day on the range, no wiping is needed at any time. More powder yet, is needed to regulate my rifle, with an oil patch.

Increasing my load further to 120gr., the balls crossed again, except opposite, left shooting low, and right shooting high by 3" separation and 2 " crossed at 50yards. indivisual groups were still less than 1"./ It's an accurate rifle in spite of what looks like a total lack lapping (crossways reamer marks) by the maker- Pedersoli. By now the wear is longitudinal and the gun shoots cleanly and very accurately.

So - the only way to find out what's going on, is to shoot it - with round balls and patches. Neetsfoot oil (real, not compound) works for hunting patches and final regulation for hunting. Be sure to record all your work on the rifle- and each tube.

It will usually take a bit more powder when using oil (for lube) to regulate than when shooting with a water based lube - The difference is usually a good 10 grs. more.

This is a perfect environment when using 110gr; for plinking and 120 to 140 for hunting - in any of them, .58 or larger.

In the Kodiak .72, a .69" round ball (Lee or Lyman mould) could be cast from straight WW or 20:1 or evern 16:1 alloy and penetrate everything you wish, on either continent.
Best wishes

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: DarylS]
      #222248 - 23/12/12 02:32 PM

I've had increasing charges of black under ball in bore rifles spread the groups -- I'd at least try more powder before ditching the idea, unless more velocity isn't what you want.

I've also run through Goex 2f, 3f, Swiss 1-1/2f, 2f etc in search of the right load - eventually finding success.
You can also work with your patch material and ball diameter.
What have you tried so far (ball dia, patch thickness, lube etc)?

You'll get something that works, can't wait to see how you do.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Idahoshooter
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Reged: 27/10/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: DarylS]
      #222283 - 24/12/12 06:15 AM

Daryl,
It must be the inefficient nature of black powder that allows heavier charges to push the groups apart, since this is the opposite of what smokeless powder does. It makes sense though, if the recoil increases at a faster rate than the velocity, that would drive the barrels farther apart when fired.
I have noticed that in my 450/400 double, different powder charges give different vertical spreads. Starting loads shoot 4” to 5” apart, with the left barrel hitting 2” to 3” higher than the right. With maximum loads, the groups are 1 ˝” apart and the left barrel is only 1” higher than the right barrel. If I could increase the powder charge even more, I wouldn’t be surprised if the groups crossed and the left barrel hit lower than the right, just like your Kodiak.

Greg


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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: Idahoshooter]
      #222288 - 24/12/12 10:30 AM

Tinker found the same thing - has to do with the recoil increasing more quickly than the speed - I expect.

What was strange, though, was that my 12 bore smooth double, shot both tubes together at 100yards with both 7 dram load of 2F GOEX = 190gr. producing 1,550fps. The smokeless load of SR4756 that kicked about 1/2 as much (felt less than that, even) but produced the same 1,550fps speed with the same ball and also struck ON at 100yards - to the sights, the same as the BP load. 150gr. black powder and ball shot well at 50yards and was the intermediate load listed in Greener's book. I did not try the light load he listed as that produced less speed than I wanted.

Maybe I was just lucky with that gun. The tubes were undersized at .724" and were originally choked IMP MOD = .702"

I shortened them to 24" from 30", which beefed up the wall tickness considerably, and increased the distance between the bore centres (reduced the convergence of the muzzles).

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dphariss
.300 member


Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: DarylS]
      #222342 - 25/12/12 01:41 PM

I would try more powder. 100 gr is basically a shotgun load.
Rifles shooting a ball invariably need more powder unless twisted very fast.
Forsythe used 5 drams in a 16 bore rifle, this gives about 1600 from my FL sporting rifle with a 30" barrel.
This is about what Forsythe was getting.
I would try more powder, 30% of ball weight is not too much with a patched ROUND BALL of this caliber.
The problem with bullets with heavy recoil is the chance they will move off the powder when the first barrel is fired.
There were reason why bullets were not popular in MLs of this size. They could not be hardened and still expand and it does not take much to move a heavy bullet off the powder. Even carrying the rifle muzzle down may cause this.

Dan


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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: Dphariss]
      #226000 - 26/02/13 12:55 PM

While Pedersoli lists quite low maximum loads - (someone advised they list 85gr. as maximum in my .58) that has to be a Lawyer's listing. In a .58, it's what I would call squib load. We are talking round balls here, not 600gr. slugs.

For me, that's a deer load. I'm with Dan - the larger the bore, the lower the pressure for ANY given load. I would test with good patch and proper ball size to the bore, right up to the normal 12 bore 2 3/4" heavy load of the 1890's - 7 drams.
I used this round ball load in a 7 1/2 pound 12 bore double, as it generated 1,550fps. We know fps and pressure are somewhat joined in BP shooting round balls. Thus a 12 bore producing 1,550fps is generating similar pressure to a 20 bore producing the same velocity.
The only real difference is recoil. The 600gr. ball is going to kick a LOT more than a 320gr. ball, when driven the same speed. The stock, has to be up to it. The pressure generated is actually quite low, even as muzzleloading rifles go.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: DarylS]
      #226017 - 26/02/13 10:59 PM

My brudder has shot his 12 Kodiak bore with 180 grains of 777

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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Chasseur
.375 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: bonanza]
      #226069 - 27/02/13 06:51 PM

I used to have a 58 Kodiak and it shot well with 100gr of 777 or 110 grains of Goex FF. As many have said the Pedersoli recommendations are legal ones not shooting ones.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: Chasseur]
      #226082 - 28/02/13 03:52 AM

My .58 Kodiak puts both barrels together (W/Round Balls) at 50 yards with 100gr. 2f GOEX, and appeared to shoot perfectly parallel regulation with 110gr. 2f GOEX out to 100yards. I wish it would shoot a larger load, oh well.

With 10gr. less, or 10 gr. over, it crosses and starts elevation problems, growing worse as the loads are decreased or increased.

Due to it's barrel weight, these rifles hold very well. I removed the 1 pound bar of lead from the butt stock. I was told they ALL have it. When refinishing the stock and sanding the butt with an orbital sander, the pure lead bar started rattling. I would not have known it was there, otherwise. I drilled a small hole, then in went a wood screw which made extraction easier - something to grip with pliers.

I did a little work on the breeches and nipple height to lower the hammer noses. One must be careful so the main springs don't contact the bottom of the lock mortices.




--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Chasseur
.375 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: 72 Kodiak [Re: DarylS]
      #226103 - 28/02/13 02:56 PM

Yep that what mine used to do. I have Steve Zihn put some real express sites on it and clean up the locks/triggers a little. Made the run better to shoot.

But in the end with so many US states not allowing double barrel muzzle loaders and the fact I could never get any good groups out to 100 yards with the rifle I sold it a few years ago. Also as you mention it was a heavy gun tote around for what it was. Ok for still or stand hunting in Maryland woods, but not ideal for humping over lava rock hills in Hawaii...

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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