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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Longknife
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Loc: Illinois
Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR
      #225418 - 17/02/13 05:54 AM

Hello. I just aquired a Trail Gun Armory Kodiak Double rifle in 45/70. In all the searches on the net it appers that they like 405 grain bullets the best. I need to decide between the Lee 457-405 and the Lee .459-405HB. (I have read that the HB can be difficult to cast.) Any one useing either mold or shooting this gun I would appreciate your opinions. I will ONLY be useing black powder in this rifle....Thanks, Ed

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Longknife

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Smokinjoe
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: Longknife]
      #225458 - 18/02/13 03:15 AM

Ed, I use the Lee 405 HB in my Buffalo Classic all the time. I cast it using Lyman #2 alloy and have had no problems at all. It drops from the mold at .459+ and I don't size it.
I think I'd use a little softer alloy when using black powder and SPG lube would probably work just fine.

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Idahoshooter
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: Smokinjoe]
      #225492 - 18/02/13 01:14 PM

Since you plan on using black powder I would recommend the .459-405HB. I have both molds and the .457-405 has small lube grooves, probably too small to carry enough lube.

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Longknife
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: Idahoshooter]
      #225535 - 19/02/13 04:38 AM

Thanks for the info, looks like the HB mold it the one to get....Ed

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Longknife

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DarylS
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: Longknife]
      #225536 - 19/02/13 05:57 AM

Ed - HB bullets are much more difficult to cast perfectly, that is, without shrink voids (cavities) inside the HB cavity. If you are new to casting, I suggest you slug the bore and purchase the appropriately sized mould with a solid base. Most .45's are .457" to .458" groove to groove, but slugging will provide you with the exact specs on your rifle's tubes.

Small grease grooves will produce a LOT of anxiety when shooting REAL black powder. Lube balls and special wads are usually necessary. The reason for capitals REAL, is that some people call the replica's, black powder - they are not.

BuffaloArms has REAL black powder bullet moulds, meaning moulds designed for shooting REAL black power. These have large, square bottomed grease grooves.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Longknife
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: DarylS]
      #225561 - 19/02/13 01:34 PM

Daryl, I am not new to casting as I have been casting round balls for quite a few years and dabbled a little with an original RB in 50-70 and a Pedersoli RB in 45-70. Never did get them to shoot to my satisfaction though so always went back to the old round ball!! And yes I DO SHOOT REAL BLACK POWDER!!!!! (is there anything else???) I was able to mic the bore of the Kodiak as it has 6 groove rifling...bore is a tight .444 and grooves at .460. I posted below about a '73 trapdoor and it is very hard to get a good measurement on the 3 groove rifling but the slug came out (about?) .450 bore and .460 groove. looks like a .459 mold is what I need, I just don't know about that HB. I always put a card wad under my bullets and can't see how a wad would work with a HB, on the other hand I can't see how black powder would work without a wad??? Maybe melt the skirt? But I am told the original BP round used this HB design,,,I'll check Buffalo Arms.... Sheesh... I think I am going out and shoot some round balls,,,They're less trouble!!!! Ha....Ed

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Longknife

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DarylS
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: Longknife]
      #225589 - 20/02/13 03:51 AM

Rifling is a bit fast for RB - well, way too fast. As you probably know, I prefer round balls - if possible, but the twists are not slow enough. Squib loads might shoot for plinking or for grouse, but that's about it.

The Kodiak has tight bores for sure, with deep rifling. This means to me that the bullets will need to be seated very deeply in the case.

You'll want to use a drop tube to get the powder compacting in the case well for proper burning, then - about 1/8" max compression - THEN seat the bullet onto to powder.

No wad with a HB - the wad will be driven/pushed up into the hollow by the pressure and throw fliers. It will also prevent proper obturation of the bullet skirt - perhaps prevent is not the proper term to use here - rather, a wad 'might' prevent 'even' obturation of the skirt, thus destroying accuracy.

If the bullet fits the grooves and a HB will before it even moves (if softer than WW), then there is no requirement for a wad. Of course, this means a full charge, of course. You will get melting of the base when the powder gases can rush past the bullet up the bore - ie: gas cutting.

Just for fun, I'd try some 405gr. RP's or WW jacketed bullets with black powder. My brother's Sharps, shot them splendidly - no wiping - 3 300's or 500's would make one hole groups (sub 1") at 100 yards off bags, with either the 2 1/2X scope, or his tang and post. Wish we could see that well today.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Idahoshooter
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: DarylS]
      #225596 - 20/02/13 05:59 AM

Ed,
I didn't really care for the hollow base mold so I removed the base plug with a file, instant flat base bullet, and it shot better as a flat base. I get most of my molds from Accurate Molds, Tom will design and build a mold that will fit your rifle, and his craftsmanship is second to none. You might want to check out Big Lube Molds, they offer a 400 grain mold with huge lube grooves designed for black powder.

Greg

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DarylS
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: Idahoshooter]
      #225606 - 20/02/13 09:25 AM

Good advice, Greg.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Longknife
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: DarylS]
      #225648 - 21/02/13 02:33 AM

QUOTE........ "Rifling is a bit fast for RB - well, way too fast. As you probably know, I prefer round balls - if possible, but the twists are not slow enough. Squib loads might shoot for plinking or for grouse, but that's about it."....



Daryl, I meant I was going to shoot some round balls out of my round ball guns, not out of the 45-=70......As have many RB guns that are extreemly accurate with out so much fuss........REAL black powder of course in REAL black powder guns....

I checked the bore and all 6 of my 45/70 rifles nad there seem to be quite a bit of difference in bore size and rifling depth....Maybe gonna need different bullets for each gun? Think I will try the get the Kodiak sighted in first and go from there, and MAYBE that load will shoot good in another one?.....Thanks, Guys for all your help....Ed

Think Buffalo Bill had these problems????

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Longknife

Edited by Longknife (21/02/13 03:37 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: Longknife]
      #225660 - 21/02/13 04:13 AM

Gotcha - sorry.

Doesn't seem to matter which discipline we try, there is a lot of work involved in finding what works well, right off the bat in the learning curve. Once we do find what works, sifting through other individual rifles shotgun or handguns 'needs/demands' seems trivial - easy with certain elements in loading remaining constant.

This is very much like patch thickness/ball diameter ratios to bore and groove depth in ML's - easy stuff once you're at that level in loading - use the prescription and merely adjust powder charges a bit - then, as you know - bingo - we add another fairly easy 'recipe' to our book of knowledge!

For some of us, the 'trip' to mastering a particularly difficult 'subject' is the fun - the experimentation, both frustrating and rewarding. Afterwards we become bored with it and sell it to a friend, usually cheaper than we paid, just to get started on another 'trial'.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Longknife
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: DarylS]
      #226470 - 06/03/13 04:17 AM

After looking at MANY, MANY molds I decided to order a LEE 405 HB mold from Midway...Most of the people useing this mold were pretty well satisfied with its performance.( and the price was right) I am hoping to be able to use it in my Trap door also....It looks like the skirt is gonna be pretty thick on these bullets , much thicker than the old 58 cal. "minnie ball".....Thanks for every ones input....Ed

Edited by Longknife (06/03/13 04:21 AM)

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Longknife
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: Longknife]
      #226471 - 06/03/13 04:27 AM

QUOTE----- " Afterwards we become bored with it and sell it to a friend, usually cheaper than we paid, just to get started on another 'trial'."

My problem is I never seem to be able to let one go!!!! I just move it to the back of the gun safe and carry on.....Ed

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Longknife

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: Longknife]
      #226508 - 06/03/13 04:20 PM

Quote:

Hello. I just aquired a Trail Gun Armory Kodiak Double rifle in 45/70. In all the searches on the net it appers that they like 405 grain bullets the best. I need to decide between the Lee 457-405 and the Lee .459-405HB. (I have read that the HB can be difficult to cast.) Any one useing either mold or shooting this gun I would appreciate your opinions. I will ONLY be useing black powder in this rifle....Thanks, Ed



May I ask why you are only using black powder in the Kodiak Mark V double rifle? Those rifles were regulated with Winchester factory ammunition and are made to use smokless powder and jacketed bullets. Mine regulates very well at 100 yds with IMR3031 powder and 400 gr Speer soft point bullets with the medium load listed for 45-70 in a Ruger No1 !

....................................

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Longknife
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #226572 - 08/03/13 04:04 AM

Dug...Because I have twenty five pounds of Black Powder..........Smokeless is just a fad anyway!!!....ED

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Longknife

Edited by Longknife (08/03/13 04:06 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: Longknife]
      #226579 - 08/03/13 04:57 AM

HA! - good enough. Although I thought the "fad" was cap lock ignition. Maybe we're both wrong?

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AkMike
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: DarylS]
      #226580 - 08/03/13 05:20 AM

You might have problems getting finding the regulation load with black powder.

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"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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hoosier
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: AkMike]
      #226582 - 08/03/13 06:11 AM

Speaking from my own experience with the Kodiak you will likely not get up to regulation velocity with black powder. Mine regulates at about 1760 FPS with the weight of bullets you are talking about and black just won't get up there in my experience. Good luck-you may luck out.

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BigMike

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DarylS
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: hoosier]
      #226585 - 08/03/13 06:20 AM

Some have said these rifles regulate with 405gr. factory ammo- ie: 1,320fps with 405gr. Jacketed. That being the case, Ed can duplicate those loads for speed and weight of bullet, however, there will be more recoil with the black powder, thus perhaps the regulation will be changed anyway, just due to that.
The only way to find out, will be to try it and see what it wants for regulation.

Big Mike - if I had one of those rifles that regulated properly at 1,760fps, I'd be VERY happy. It's the perfect muzzle speed for a 405gr. RP flat nose bullet, for all big game hunting in N.A. Easy to shoot, too.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hoosier
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Re: Kodiak MK 5 45/70 BPCR [Re: DarylS]
      #226587 - 08/03/13 06:38 AM

Mine does indeed regulate as stated and yes ,I am quite pleased with it. If I do my part it gives
just under one inch spread and just off of perfectly horizontal-around 1/2 to 5/8 inch vertical.So far it has done all I have asked of it including Bison.Nothing with teeth though. The distance of regulation is one hundred yards by the way.

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BigMike

Edited by hoosier (08/03/13 06:40 AM)

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