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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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vagrouser
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Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 104
Loc: usa
M1910 half-stock, takedown
      #224718 - 04/02/13 06:40 AM

Here are a few pics of a M1910 I picked up a couple of months ago. The carbine length barrel and takedown configuration make this a handy little rig and I think it might be perfect as a packable hog or dark timber rifle. It isn't perfect, but is in darn nice shape for a rifle bearing 1920 proof marks.

The bore is mint and I've got everything on hand to load for it including several hundred Hornady 270gr RNs that I've scrounged--I just need to make the time to get to the range.

I'll follow up with a report in the hopefully not too distant future...














Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 09:28 PM)

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: vagrouser]
      #224722 - 04/02/13 07:59 AM

Very nice example! Using one of similar configuration, but a non-takedown, myself, see
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=173003&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
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Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: kuduae]
      #224726 - 04/02/13 08:34 AM

Lovely, just lovely

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To live life as it is handed to me from God

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Kiwi_bloke
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Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: Caprivi]
      #224738 - 04/02/13 01:52 PM

If you can find some 9,3x57 Norma cases, you can make them suitable by a single pass in a 9,5x57 M.Sch. FL die. Or, you can use .30-06 but they'll need to be neck-expanded in steps and perhaps with an anneal as well.

I get good accuracy out of mine, (also a take-down), using 260-grn Nosler Accubond bullets. They feed well too. If your eyes are getting a bit old, a Merit diopter or similar make-shift aperture, such as the types that stick on glasses, help bring everything, front and rear irons sights and target-bull, all into focus at the range.

I also polished up the front bead to get a good sighting picture, but I now need to smoke it to make it stand out on a bright day. A spare in the pistol-grip trap got me onto POA as it was a few thou less in profile. Having the original cleaning kit is unusual for these.

Very nice example.

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vagrouser
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Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 104
Loc: usa
Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #224746 - 04/02/13 04:13 PM

Kuduae, I well remember that thread and your fondness for the rifle/chambering definitely influenced me when I spied this for sale. The seller, who happened to be local, was moving overseas and threw in dies, load data and a ton of reloading components in the sale. Definitely a lucky score.

I just checked and I've got 40 Norma 9.3x57 cases already prepped, plus a large bag of 30-06 brass Cpt Curl kindly offered up. I just need to get my bench set back up after my last move and load some rounds for the range. I'll definitely keep the 260gr Nosler Accubonds in mind as the Hornady 270gr RNs were discontinued and a bit tough to locate. That said, my little cache should hold me for most of my hunting needs.

I'd love to find a Lyman #36, P-H Sportarget like Kuduae has on his rifle, or even a factory tang sight to swap in, but am not holding my breath.

Kiwi bloke, I've been in denial about needing glasses and I appreciate the tip.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: vagrouser]
      #224772 - 05/02/13 06:44 AM

My experiences when using x57 brass, both S&B 8x57IS and Norma 9.3x57, are unsatisfactory. Of course I first thought that I could open them up to take .375 bullets and go bang. It ain't so, as I got a lot of misfires due to excessive headspace. As I wrote before, the 9.5x57 M-Sch is not merely an opened up standard x57 case, but a somewhat improved case. The base diameter is the same, but other critical dimensions differ considerably. According to the current CIP tables the 9.3x57 has a max body length to shoulder of 45.86 mm = 1.806", the 9.5x57 M-Sch 46.5 mm = 1.831", 0.64 mm = .025" difference. This is not all because the shoulder diameters differ too, 10.95 mm = .431" for the 9.3 and 11.9 = .469" for the 9.5, another difference of 0.95 mm = .038". These differences sum up to an excessive headspace of about one full mm if you try to use opened up 8x57 or 9x57 cases "as is". So, if you insist on using standard 8x57 or 9.3x57 cases, you have to first open up the necks to about 10mm = .400", then to size them down again to form an auxiliary shoulder for fireforming. You will most likely have to anneal the cases in the proceedings. I make my cases from once fired W-W or S&B .30-06 brass, as these brands don't require neck reaming. Anneal,trim to 56mm, open up the necks to 9.5mm (two steps), resize in a 9.5x57 M-Sch full length die. Both ways need more work than simple resizing, so take your choice. Here is a photo of a 9x57 cartridge on new Norma 9.3x57 brass above a 9.5x57 M-Sch on reworked W-W 30-06 brass.

BTW, the CIP max pressure of the 9.3x57 is 2600 bar against 3050 bar of the 9.5x57 M-Sch.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 09:29 PM)

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vagrouser
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Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 104
Loc: usa
Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: kuduae]
      #224819 - 06/02/13 01:51 AM

Kuduae,

Thanks for the information. I've come across threads on this before, but you've done the best job describing the differences.

As an aside, anyone know if each model carries its own serial number range? I would presume this to be the case given my 1910 is SN 6296 (1920 proof) and there were pics posted recently of a 1903 bearing a SN in the 13K range, also with 1920 proof. I understand too that total production estimates for the pre-war rifles are unavailable? Any best guesses?

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: vagrouser]
      #224832 - 06/02/13 05:11 AM

Yes, apparently they did use seperate serial number ranges for each model. Here are some models, years and numbers of mine:
M1903 6.5x54 - 1936 - # 23979 // M 1910 9.5x57 - 1937 - # 11400 // M1924 .30-06 - 1927 - # 299 // M1925 8x60S - 1934 - # 3233 // M1950 7x57 - 1951 - 3092 // Post 1952 Magnum action marked M 1950 6.5x68 - 1957 - 22638. The "military" production runs of M1900s and M1903s(without the bolt hold-down spring) were numbered differently too.
AFAIK the prewar factory ledgers are lost. The Mannlicher Collectors Association www.mannlicher.org has better files of serial numbers than the Steyr factory.

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: kuduae]
      #224865 - 06/02/13 03:00 PM

My reloading logbook shows that I was using 9,3x57 Norma brass, but I was also using a +10 thou Redding competition shellholder to cancel out excess headspace. The necks were quite uneven, I think because I had a bent decapper thread in the RCBS die. I straightened them our by necking down to 9x56 M.Sch. and then used a C-H tapered expander to bring them back up to 9,5x57 M. Sch. I'd be checking run-out along the way with a RCBS casemaster. I also now use a Hornady concentricity tool that actually pushes "bent" bullets back to within 1-2 thou runout. This also helps true the case shoulders on firing because the case is just short of a crush fit. The competition shellholder also helps this, because the case has nowhere to go out of alignment when the die and the shellholder stay in firm contact.

Jeff Munnell published an article on this caliber in Precision Reloading, Sept 2005. I used one of the suggested loads; H4895 with a 260 Nosler Accubond, at a measured 10 ft, and the Chrony velocity I got from my 1927 built, 24" barrelled take-down was 2,250 fps with SD's between 5 and 11. Normally 3 shots would go within 1,1/4" between centers. For open sights, I was well pleased.

I also discovered excess headspace on one of my other Mannlichers when the cases ejected with the primers left half way out. I cured this by making a false shoulder, (i.e. expanding the neck by another 0.5mm), I would have backed the FL die well off, then lowered it a 1/8th turn or even less, then checked it in the chamber to see if the bolt would close, and then another 1/8th, and check again, etc. A small gunsmith's spirit lamp meant I could also smoke the neck and shoulder and see if the dies were making contact. So on the next firing the case stretched to take up the headspace, but it didn't get sized back afterwards. The new dimensions became the permanent ones and I had no more problems.

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greenshoots
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Reged: 23/05/08
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Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #224882 - 06/02/13 08:20 PM

nice anything in the pistol grip? did not find anything in mine nice youve got the cleaning rods

my 1903 has a serial number of 6518 and a 1936 prof



greenshoots

Edited by greenshoots (06/02/13 08:25 PM)

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vagrouser
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Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 104
Loc: usa
Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: greenshoots]
      #224899 - 07/02/13 04:10 AM

Wish it had a PG trap, but just the standard horn cap on this rifle.

I agree that it's nice to have the cleaning rods, and these remain pretty straight when assembled. I suppose it could come in handy clearing a bore obstruction in the field, but I might get more enjoyment out of a tubo cigar or two in there. Will have to check the fit

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: vagrouser]
      #224961 - 08/02/13 06:43 AM

FYI, George Eastman, who then owned Kodak-Eastman, along with his party purchased three 9,5x57 Mannlichers in London for his 1926 safari out of Nairobi with PH Philip Percival. He wrote about shooting buffalo and lion with them in his privately printed book, Chronicles of an African Adventure, (1927). He mentions their trigger pulls were all set at 6-7 pounds and I found that mine is the same after all these years. The 9,5's did OK on lion, not so good on the buffs. It's not too bad a read, if you can find a copy. They did things a bit differently in that era:

“This time it was Audley's turn. The way he turned the gas into that Buick was something terrifying. But nobody tried to hold him up, we were so anxious for Audley to get his buffalo. Soon we got into range and Audley, by a few well directed shots, got his prize..."

The pistol grip stock on my M.1910 has a trap with a spare front sight, 10 thou different in height to the one on the muzzle. It's wrapped in a bit of paper, I suppose to stop it rattling. There's also an optional pop-up “Ballie-Grohman” 2-range setting adjustable peep-sight that I don't use much. It's designed so that this spring-loaded sight folds out of the way when the bolt travels over it and, then, pops back up again for the next shot. When not in use, you set it back in it's recess in the grip and it's held in place until needed.

I'm not sure about putting cigars in the stock trap. The two extra holes are for spare bullets. I was smoking a cigar once and a bird took off so I shot it with my shotgun. The recoil forces caused the cigar to sort-off explode !!! So I wouldn't imagine they'd do too well inside the stock trap - if you were at all serious, that is.

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vagrouser
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Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 104
Loc: usa
Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #224963 - 08/02/13 07:48 AM

Kiwi,

That's great to know about the Eastman safari and his mention of the Mannlichers. I enjoy reading period references to firearms (especially ones I own) whenever possible and will keep my eyes open for this book.

As far as the 'road hunting' goes, I understand this to have been quite common at the time along with volley fire on animals. Not so accepted today of course!

I gather that the PG trap and Ballie-Grohman sight were offered together? I don't recall seeing a rifle with one, but not the other. Curious too if the spare front blade has a different diameter bead in addition to the height difference? Definitely cool options to have.

I was half way kidding about sticking a cigar in the butt. Wouldn't fit where the spare cartridges go, but one might in the hole for the cleaning rod. Likely easier to just drop one in a coat pocket!

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: M1910 half-stock, takedown [Re: vagrouser]
      #225075 - 10/02/13 05:04 PM

Both beads are the same, save for the height. As I recall 10 thou made 2" difference at 100 yards, but that would depend on the sight radius; (read the barrel length).

Percival was "Pops" in the Hemingway accounts. It's been a few years since I read them. I'd imagine that what he did was the right thing to do for his times. Cars on safari were probably a somewhat new thing, (the book shows a picture of a lion being loaded in the back of one of the wooden-spoke wheeled vehicles). I guess they got a bad wrap in the years that followed and so the rules changed.

Re the options being added together, maybe. I don't think the custom department at the Steyr Works was ever short of work. So there would be plenty of commissions for this optional extra or that. The take-down was known as the "English model", (in Steyr's 1930's catalogs). Ballie-Grohman was also a writer whose books you might be interested in. He was fanatical about hunting chamois and owned a large hunting preserve with them in.

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