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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
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Loc: washington
Inivisable rifling
      #224624 - 02/02/13 09:23 AM

I have seen refrance to inivisable rifling and was woundering how deep it was. I am asking as it sounds like one could use it in a shotgun barrell even though they are not that thick. I would also think that they would work best in slow twist so as to keep the rpm down and help keep it from stripping in the bore somthing arown 1 in 90 or so Thanks.
Tom N

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DarylS
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: TomN]
      #224654 - 03/02/13 02:42 AM

Lancaster made it, seems to me. Quite shallow, wide, very slow, smooth edged, no corners, rouned, maybe 4 grooves taking up the entire bore's circumference. An impression of twist when looking through the bore - this only from reading - I've never seen it myself.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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casper50
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: DarylS]
      #224655 - 03/02/13 04:41 AM

Lancaster made oval bore rifling. I had a Greener "The Jungle Gun" a 12 bore that had rifling so shallow that it was hard do see. It was straight up to last 6" and then did a slow twist. I had it for a year before I saw the twist it was that shallow.

Edited by casper50 (03/02/13 06:30 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: casper50]
      #224657 - 03/02/13 05:43 AM


As casper said, Oval Bore rifling.

It can be very hard to see.

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: 500Nitro]
      #224659 - 03/02/13 05:53 AM

Was the Lancaster rifling a good accurate style of rifling?
I've seen some for sale but never in person.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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casper50
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: AkMike]
      #224660 - 03/02/13 06:29 AM

Yes it was accurate and extremely easy to clean up afterwards.

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Grenadier
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: casper50]
      #224662 - 03/02/13 07:21 AM

I can't comment as I've never seen this.

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TomN
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: Grenadier]
      #224669 - 03/02/13 08:53 AM

Thanks for the replays I would still like to know if it could be used in a shot gun barrell made of modern steel and still be safe to shoot sounds like their would be very little removed from the barrell. Thanks. Tom N

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DarylS
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: TomN]
      #224713 - 04/02/13 04:22 AM

I don't see why it wouldn't work just fine, Tom. You could quite easy to make a wooden float - type cutter/scraper.

If you can get your hands on the book by Ned Roberts "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle" you can see how to make a rifling bench quite easily.

A single groove in the dowel-type guide would work. Multi grooves are not necessary. A gently twisted 1" or larger square tubing could also be your guide. The tubing idea would be fiarly easy, with a cast-on plug of lead for the cutter guide to turn the float.

The gentle twist would be easy to make with one end of the tubing anchored, the pipe heated over it's length and then twisted - slightly. About anything around 1/4 turn over 24" to 30" should be a big improvement over a smoothbore.

That barrel would literally call out for a patched ball - clean, accurate shooting - with black powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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MotelAlpha
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: DarylS]
      #225168 - 12/02/13 11:57 AM

TomN, My Hollis has invisable rifling, and shoots very well. It is a twelve bore, and shoots a 678 grain conical bullet ahead of 28 grains of 4756 in a 12ga brass hull..very accurate and easy to shoot.

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Pro Deo et Pro Patria

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AkMike
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: MotelAlpha]
      #225169 - 12/02/13 12:12 PM

Which Hollis sold it? I Hollis or A Hollis?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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rigbymauser
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: AkMike]
      #225188 - 13/02/13 03:36 AM

My Rigby 12bore has 3 "groove". As I have read the original patent the grooves were rolled die unto
the surfice, as the barrel was pulled and twisted in the same motion. My gun takes .745cal. Normal H&H paradox is too small. In these barrels it requires the ball fill the intire caliber of the barrelcaliber like a conventional rifle.

Edited by rigbymauser (13/02/13 03:42 AM)

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MotelAlpha
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: rigbymauser]
      #225266 - 14/02/13 02:26 PM

AkMie,
My Hollis is locked away in my safe, but will check tomorrow. It has been quite some time since I've looked at it. Sorry, I should have a lot of this written down.

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MotelAlpha
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: MotelAlpha]
      #225267 - 14/02/13 02:41 PM

AkMike, I have to go and look, I have had some surgery, so not getting around...but, It is aan A.Hollis if you know of him, I don't as am not as into collecting as much as other

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Pro Deo et Pro Patria

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AkMike
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: MotelAlpha]
      #225271 - 14/02/13 04:55 PM

Sorry to hear that you're not feeling up to snuff. But I thank you for taking a look for me. It does sound like it's a good shooting old bore rifle.
Many of the rifles sold by A Hollis were made by Leonard, who also mad them for Jefferys.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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MotelAlpha
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Re: Inivisable rifling [Re: AkMike]
      #225283 - 14/02/13 11:36 PM

I started doing some research ,and found this post
Boothroyd's Directory of British Gunmakers lists:

A. Hollis & Sons, 28 Victoria, London (no date)
A. Hollis & Co, Mincing Lane, London (1897-1908)
Isaac Hollis & Sons, Birmingham
William & Christopher Hollis, Birmingham
William Hollis, Cheltenham

There is no listing for any Hollis on Minores, London but a Google search found these separate replies to similar queries:

"I traded correspondence about this maker with Boothroyd several times before he passed. Don't know when the style changed, but would like to know myself. Alfred B. is A. Hollis & Son, previously in the Minories, later in Victoria Street, successors to E. Hollis and W. & E. Hollis, established 1796. Royal warrant as gunmaker to HRH Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught. Also gunmaker to HE the Viceroy in the late 1880's. One or more outlets in India. Geoffrey was quite certain that Alfred's business wasn't connected to that of Isaac Hollis, and I agree."

(and):

"Alfred B. Hollis, the proprietor of A. Hollis & Co, came from the same gunmaking family as Isaac Hollis, the owner of the more well know I. Hollis concern.
While having his origins in the Birmingham gun trade, he was an inveterate traveler, and while in India in 1885 set up in Bombay as a gundealer.
Although he signed his guns “A. Hollis & Co – London”, it seems, despite being a trained gunmaker, he was merely a distributor and repairer during this phase, in the same manner of other India based firms such as Mantons, Lyon & Lyon, Rodda, P. Orr & Son, etc.
He counted among his customer the Nizam of Hyderabad, and the Duke of Connaught; there are some rifles around that carry the legend “Rifle Maker to the Duke of Connaught”
This reference as a “rifle maker” probably explains why A. Hollis shotguns are rarely encountered. Or alternatively, unlike rifles (excepting .303’s), shotguns have been a prohibited export from India for many years."

In my inquiry here and there I had a typo for the street name. It is Minories, not Minores.

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MotelAlpha
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Re: Inivisable rifling photos [Re: MotelAlpha]
      #225493 - 18/02/13 01:14 PM

All,
I finally got my act in gear with my wifes help, and took some photos of my Hollis




Thanks for your patients with my poor skill at this.

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Pro Deo et Pro Patria

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500Nitro
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Re: Inivisable rifling photos [Re: MotelAlpha]
      #225502 - 18/02/13 04:03 PM


Motel

I am happy to be corrected but that photo IMHO
does NOT show invisible rifling but what I think
is Metford rifling.

Invisible rifling looks like a shotgun barrel,
all smooth and shiny except for a slight spiral
in it which shows up better when you have streaky
oil in the barrels.

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Sarg
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Re: Inivisable rifling photos [Re: 500Nitro]
      #225505 - 18/02/13 05:36 PM

I think that is called Semi Visible rifling ?
Very much like my Tolley 12 Bore rifle, but the lands are sharper on mine.

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casper50
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Re: Inivisable rifling photos [Re: Sarg]
      #225506 - 18/02/13 06:08 PM

I agree with 500nitro. Not even close to invisible rifling.

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sbs470
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Re: Inivisable rifling photos [Re: casper50]
      #225511 - 18/02/13 08:45 PM

I have a similar rifle to MotelAlpha
A Hollis & son Boxlock ejecter
serial number 30204 their last entry was 30374 in 1919
it has 3" chambers
birmingham proofed
nitro proofed
marked Cordite 750 max bullet
also marked S&B (shot & bullet ) this stamp is not seen that often
the triggers are turnd out to suit a right handed shooter.
Prince of Wales grip

Sherman Bell wrote a good article about a rifle similar to mine and MotelAlpha's in the double gun journal 2001 vol 12 issue 2

The rifling in mine is invisable ,it need a lot of powder residue and bullet lube to see the seven lands and groves ( probably not the correct terminology )

I think the rifling in MotelAlpha's rifle is Metford rifling

good shooting

sbs470

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MotelAlpha
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Re: Inivisable rifling photos [Re: sbs470]
      #225515 - 18/02/13 11:34 PM

Thanks All, I'll have to see if Ian take some better photos, the land & groves are quite rounded instead of sharp edges

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500Nitro
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Re: Inivisable rifling photos [Re: MotelAlpha]
      #225517 - 18/02/13 11:42 PM

Quote:

Thanks All, I'll have to see if Ian take some better photos, the land & groves are quite rounded instead of sharp edges



Which is exactly how you would describe Metford rifling.

That was the whole point of it, rounded edges.

I'll find a pic.

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500Nitro
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Re: Inivisable rifling photos [Re: 500Nitro]
      #225518 - 18/02/13 11:47 PM


Have a look at the black and white
half way down the page with the writing on it.


http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/11441


Note
No 4 - Metford
No 8 - Lancaster Oval bore, no rifling visible.

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DarylS
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Re: Inivisable rifling photos [Re: 500Nitro]
      #225528 - 19/02/13 03:22 AM

The note printed back in the 1800's that I read, stated the bores appeared to be smooth, however in proper light, a slight twist could be observed in the bore's surface indicating they had invisible rifling. This coincides with Nitro's post above.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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