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vegard_dino
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Reged: 05/03/09
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7x65R, a killer for the break open gun?
      #223175 - 09/01/13 04:14 AM



Hello all.

Hope some can help me. I heard a rumor that the 7x65R is a killer for the break open guns, high pressure I was told......Really??

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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bakposten
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #223179 - 09/01/13 05:08 AM

According to QL the 7*65r brennecke has a max pressure of 55114 psi, the 7*57r has a max pressure of 49313 psi. If it`s a bad choiche for a break open combination gun I don`t know, but most drillings in Norway are 6,5*55 or 308 win (yes idiotic cartridges for a break open gun) and the pressure in those are 55114 psi for the 6,5*55 and for the 308 win 60191 psi.

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93mouse
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #223183 - 09/01/13 05:40 AM

Quote:


I heard a rumor that the 7x65R is a killer for the break open guns, high pressure I was told......Really??




Bollocks...


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grandveneur
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #223185 - 09/01/13 06:02 AM

I have heard nothing about this . There are a lot of drillings or other combination guns of this caliber used in France and Germany .

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kuduae
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: grandveneur]
      #223190 - 09/01/13 06:49 AM

BU--S-IT!! 7x65R was for several decades the standard chambering in German and Austrian break-open drillings, combination guns and stalking rifles. Never heard about this chambering causing any damage.

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500Nitro
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: kuduae]
      #223193 - 09/01/13 07:01 AM



As 93 Mouse said.

Bollocks.


Has been loaded for years in Single shot and break open,
any problems would have shown up years ago IF they
were there.


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xausa
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #223209 - 09/01/13 09:50 AM

I certainly hope this is not the case, since my Krieghoff Ulm Primus Bockbüchsflinte is chambered for the even more powerful 7X75R vom Hofe Super Express (4150 bar vs. 3800 bar for the 7X65R).

The number of manufacturers who offer "break open guns" in caliber 7X65R is legion. Seriously, how much sense would it make for respected and responsible manufacturers to offer a cartridge which threatened to jeopradize the safety of their own products?


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500Nitro
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: xausa]
      #223213 - 09/01/13 10:06 AM


xa

7X75R Vom Hofe Super Express

Always liked the look of that round in COTW !!!
Have never seen a gun chambered for it so
a new one for me.


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DarylS
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #223218 - 09/01/13 11:49 AM

A friend of mine, a Knife maker and gun smith, does most of his hunting with a scoped stack barrel - Merkle, I think, 16 bore over 7x65R. The 7x65R has a VERY thin tube, but if shot quickly, or slowly, spread out, shoots well under 1" at 100 meters, handheld using bags for hand support - horrible Zeiss scope too, - pointed tree trunks for crosshairs - HA!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: DarylS]
      #223242 - 09/01/13 04:39 PM

I saw the question and guessed many knowledgeable guys would answer this one.

I think there are a few issues with break open rifles, case design and pressure.

1. Rimmed or flanged. Better extraction. The reason a better choice is a rimmed bras cartridge.

2. Pressure. Pressure is an issue as the break open actions are often weaker than say a bolt action. However in my inexperienced opinion when the rifle calibre is smaller and the case smaller it is less of an issue because of no. 3.

3. Back thrust. Or whatever it is called. Combining higher pressure with greater back thrust is a problem with break open rifles. Larger calibre cartridges develop greater back thrust than smaller calibres. The reason higher pressure big bore cartridges are often less wise in a break open rifle than lower pressure alternatives. The same pressure level say in a .450 sized cartridge would be unwise.

But it seems to me, the reason the higher pressure 7x65R is fine in break open rifles, is while it has higher pressure, it is rimmed so better extraction, and the cartridge size develops lesser back thrust so the actions can handle the pressure.

Is the above incorrect? Simplistic? Correct? I am not a gunmaker or an engineer. I welcome corrections.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Rolf
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: NitroX]
      #223252 - 09/01/13 11:10 PM

"7x65R is a killer for the break open guns"

I do not think so.
7x65R was a cartridge development for matching the benefits of the 7x64 in a cartridge suited for all kinds of combination guns and single shot (break-top) rifles.

For this purpose a strong rim was added and the pressure level was reduced in the 7x65R.

Your post was the first time I heard a comment about the 7x65R being hard on rifles.

best regards
Rolf


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HeymSR20
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: NitroX]
      #223255 - 09/01/13 11:31 PM

To work it out,

7x65r max pressure is 50,000 psi. Area of head is .224 sq in, hence thrust is 11,200 lb

Compare to the 16 bore shotgun

Pressure is 11,500 psi. Area of head is .78 sq in hence thrust is 9,000 lb

So yes the rifle gives a bit more theoretical thrust, but not that much more than a 16

Now most shotguns survive tens of thousands of rounds before shooting loose. Most rifles probably only shoot a few hundred rounds in the course of most lifetimes. My 7x65r shoots half a dozen animals a year and probably a further ten to 20 rounds zeroing / practice. You can easily shot a couple of hundred cartridges in one session at the clays. That's five to ten years worth of 7x65r shooting.

Given that most 7x65r are built on strong actions with cross bolts etc you are far more likely to wear barrel out than shoot it loose.


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Grenadier
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: HeymSR20]
      #223259 - 10/01/13 01:22 AM

Maybe you were thinking of the 7x75R.

--------------------
~


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grandveneur
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: Grenadier]
      #223264 - 10/01/13 04:03 AM

Quote:

Maybe you were thinking of the 7x75R.




Neither , this cartridge is made for single shot rifles or combination guns . No problem with them .

Who paid all of you to propagate this rumors ?


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DarylS
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: grandveneur]
      #223270 - 10/01/13 05:34 AM

None of us have supported that rumor.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Buchsemann
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: grandveneur]
      #223271 - 10/01/13 07:24 AM

Who paid all of you to propagate this rumors?




What the f...?

The 7X65R (1917) as many know is a necked down version of Wilhelm Brenneke's less successful 8X65R (1912 - 1914). Both are rimmed versions of their 64mm rimless variants that were designed specifically for use in break-open guns. Any word to the contrary is nonsense.

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by Buchseman (10/01/13 07:28 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: Buchsemann]
      #223278 - 10/01/13 10:16 AM

The mention of a 7x75R vom Hofe Super Express rang a bell in the back of my head! About 20 years ago I was shown a Kipplauf, single shot break open rifle chambered for this cartridge that had developed some shake after about 100 shots. It was made about 1960 by a no-name (I know the name) gunmaker in Wildflecken, Germany. It was a very primitive design from the start, looking quite good outside. Inside, it was a single-bite design, without any top fastener or dolls head. To make things even worse: Though the bite in the barrel lump was of quite generous dimensions, about 10 mm wide and 8mm deep, the workmanship was lousy from the start. The locking wedge was much to short, going over the edge of the of that bite for only about 1 mm. Of course, though the rifle had stood proof, this lockup surface of about 10 mm x 1 mm was insufficient. I would not have trusted such a break-open rifle design for more than a .22 Hornet or a .30-30, let alone the lousy execution with the too short single-bite locking wedge. Many US troops were/are stationed in Wildflecken, so I guess that gunmaker sold some-many of his fine-looking break-open stalking rifles to unknowing GIs. In such rifles anything above a .22 lr would be a killer!

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fuhrmann
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: kuduae]
      #223291 - 10/01/13 03:25 PM

In the early days of smokeless powder, around 1900, das "Loseschiessen" or "shooting loose" was a definite concern. I happen to have some volumes of "Das Schiesswesen" from that time, and there is quite some complaints and discussion about break action guns getting wobbly with the new smokeless high pressure cartridges.

In that time were hunters and gunnmakers (the conservative lot, I think) that still preferred to stick to black powder, and push this to the limits of practical use, as with the 9.3x82R or even bigger cases.
Other gunmakers, such as Jäger, Schrader and Brenneke worked on more stable break action systems.
I feel the amount of work that went into these sophisticated and difficult-to-produce actions illustrates the need.

Here is an article on the Brenneke action for further reading.

http://ezine.nitroexpress.info/NickuduFiles/Africa-PDF/Africa334.pdf

Regards,
fuhrmann


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vegard_dino
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: fuhrmann]
      #223307 - 10/01/13 06:27 PM



Hello and thank you all for some very good information.

As sad here, I had the feeling it was words for ppl who do not know better.
The 7x65R WAS made to match the 7x64 in a break gun.
From what the x64 have of a reputation, a break open in 7x65R will be a good rifle for anything in Europe.

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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HeymSR20
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #223330 - 11/01/13 12:10 AM

I think you are absolutely correct. A wide choice of loads - everything from flat shooting 123gn loads up to powerful 176 gn thumpers. Most single shots and combinations tend to be very well built and accurate - certainly for anything that you want to do within 200 yds

You do though to shoot them properly, as in firm grip on foreend with back of your hand on a rest. They don't resond well in my experience to rest the foreend on a rest and then shooting with the sniper style cross arms that seems to be all the rage with heavy barrel bolt actions with bipeds etc.

Ok it's not the tool for 400 yd shots, but then most 7x65rs are nice and light and very handy -getting into those last 250 yds is where the fun is.

Even for driven big game they are more than adequate, although if this was your main sport perhaps an 8mm or 9.3 might be more appropriate, but they are not as flat shooting.


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Chasseur
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #223384 - 11/01/13 10:41 AM

Some years ago I heard that rumor but in my experience handloading for it I do not think its true. Perhaps something like all those old wive's tales about damascus blowing up, etc.

Its a great cartridge and at the moment my favorite to hunt with. I load Hornaday 154grs normally. I have an old GDR Merkel drilling in and it can do this with three shots at 90m on a good day:




I use it for my deer stalking with most shots being 150-250 yards or so.



I like this cartridge so much I'm in process of getting a single shot rifle in it as well.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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HeymSR20
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: Chasseur]
      #223453 - 12/01/13 10:36 AM

What load do you use with those 154 gn bullets? it seems to work. How do those bullets work on deer?

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Chasseur
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: HeymSR20]
      #223471 - 12/01/13 03:23 PM

I tend to use IMR 4350 for most of my rifle reloading. The bullets work well good penetration but also opening up in deer sized game.

I've also used this gun/caliber/load on a couple of Scottish hill stags last year to good effect.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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HeymSR20
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: Chasseur]
      #223557 - 13/01/13 10:38 PM

Just bought a tub of IMR4350 to give a try. How much powder gives your best grouping?? Have you tried it with the 243 as well.

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Chasseur
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Re: 7x65R, a killer for the break open gun? [Re: HeymSR20]
      #223615 - 14/01/13 06:17 PM

47grs of 4350 is best load for this rifle. I've not tried it with a 243 but I used to load it for the 9.3x74r and it worked very well.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



Edited by Chasseur (16/01/13 08:35 AM)


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