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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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casper50
.400 member


Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1364
Loc: Alaska
New to me Bartels stalking rifle.
      #223042 - 07/01/13 06:52 AM

A Friedr. Jacob Bartels Wiesbaden falling block in 8.15x46R.










Edited by CptCurl (23/01/13 11:47 PM)

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1778
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: casper50]
      #223044 - 07/01/13 08:32 AM

Friedrich Jacob Bartels (1869 - 1926)ran the Bartels family gunshop at Bahnhofstr.5, Wiesbaden, from about 1899 to 1926. The rifle is built on a German falling block action aptly named "Ideal". Wrote an article about these actions some years ago in "Waidmannsheil #40 - 42", a publication of the German Gun Collectors Association, www.germanguns.com . These actions were made by an unidentified shop, most likely Cuno Büchel's, in Zella Mehlis for the trade. You find them with many retailer names on the rifles, among them Burgsmüller, Schmidt&Habermann, both Kettners, Simson, Greifelt, Glaser, Miller&Greiss and you name them. Both Fred Adolph and Paul Jaeger in the USA. These actions were produced at least from 1911 to 1941. Frank de Haas aptly nominated them as "the best German falling block action", but ascribed them to Schmidt &Habermann from a rifle marked such.
I am very interested to see a photo of the proof- and other markings under the barrel, visible after removing the foreend. These marks will most likely allow to identify the proofhouse, most likely Zella-Mehlis, and the date of proof.

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1778
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: kuduae]
      #223045 - 07/01/13 08:51 AM

Here is my rifle on such an "Ideal" action, a short 21" barrel (original!) stalking rifle in 8x57R360, marked by "Ad. Schulte-Herbrüggen, Essen and Zella", Zella-Mehlis proofed June 1912.

Granted, it has seen much worse times post-WW2, but came to me very cheap, an offer I could not resist.

Edited by CptCurl (23/01/13 11:47 PM)

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1364
Loc: Alaska
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: kuduae]
      #223047 - 07/01/13 08:53 AM



Edited by CptCurl (23/01/13 11:50 PM)

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1778
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: casper50]
      #223048 - 07/01/13 09:13 AM

Your rifle passed the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse in October 1913 as gun number 114 of that month. The Suhl proofhouse did not stamp these ledger numbers. I have not yet identified that "branch" trademark. 7.7mm stands ffor the bore/land, not groove/bullet diameter.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1778
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: kuduae]
      #223053 - 07/01/13 09:54 AM

Some more rifles on such "Ideal" actions. All were proofed in Zella-Mehlis and probably made there, even if marked by a Suhl gunmaker. The reinforced action bodies are all from the 1930s. Internally they are the same.

Greifelt, Suhl dated 1939


Kief in Peine, 1938


Miller&Greiss, Munich,1933


Simson, Suhl, 1921


Completely unmarked as to maker,1935


Edited by CptCurl (23/01/13 11:51 PM)

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Switzerland
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: kuduae]
      #223054 - 07/01/13 10:04 AM

Kuduae,

this is very interesting as I have a rifle of the same type.
But the barrel is a later addition, with Munich proof marks and numbers 2598 and 968 (date?), caliber 5.6x52R.
I am responsible for the scope (a Pecar from the 1970s) and my gunsmith for the ventilated pad...
The action's only outside marks are "crown-over-B" and "crown-over-U". I never checked for any marks inside.

Regards,
fuhrmann





Edited by CptCurl (23/01/13 11:52 PM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26598
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: fuhrmann]
      #223062 - 07/01/13 11:03 AM

Love those old single shots.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DORLEAC
.333 member


Reged: 22/01/12
Posts: 464
Loc: Perpignan, France
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: DarylS]
      #223104 - 08/01/13 07:54 AM

The system is known here as the Schmidt & Habermann.
Various gunsmiths in Suhl, Greifelt among the best, made them.
Of some interest some photos from a rifle we have built some years ago on a much-modified action of that type. It was chambered for the European classic 6,5x57R and proved perfect functioning and superb accuracy.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com















Edited by CptCurl (23/01/13 11:54 PM)

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Buchsemann
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: DORLEAC]
      #223117 - 08/01/13 10:15 AM

DORLEAC,

Personally I do not care for the knife blade-like sculpted extension coming off the sides of the receiver but the rest of the gun is very nice. Have you made any others and if so were they chambered for other cartridges as well?

Regards,

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1778
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: Buchsemann]
      #223118 - 08/01/13 10:29 AM

Very nice recreation, even to the old Suhl-type double set-trigger with a V-spring instead of the usual post-war "hairpin" one.

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DORLEAC
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Reged: 22/01/12
Posts: 464
Loc: Perpignan, France
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: kuduae]
      #223187 - 09/01/13 06:17 AM

I have received much info from kuduae and I think he is right.
These actions were made by various makers in Suhl and Zella-Melhis, the sister town in Thuringia.
The true name of the system is "Ideal" and the "Schmidt & Habermann" moniker is an error, some "Expert" calling it this because many such rifles were sold by Schmidt & Habermann.
However I must confess that if I think that those actions are very well designed inside, they are bulky and not too elegant and it was an headache trying to make a good looking rifle with the one our customer furnished.
We have to blueprint very carefully all the internal to avoid any play and I remind that we were forced to machine thin bronze bearings on new hard heat-treated main axes (n°25 & n°7) to obtain a smooth operating.
Also we have taken great care in heat-treating after engraving.
I think that they are good for such cartridges as the 6,5x57R, the 8x57JR or the 9,3x72R, but the same action, modern made in modern steel, would be perfectly suitable for any medium bore caliber.
We have done only one rifle using that system and honestly we don't plan to make another one, preferring to work on Heeren action.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1778
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: DORLEAC]
      #223196 - 09/01/13 07:18 AM

These actions were offered right from the start in 9.3x74R too, so (with variant triggerguard/underlever) in the 1910 Stukenbrok, Einbeck catalog.


Fred Adolph of Genoa, New York even offered them for the high-intensity Newton cartridges.


The 1930 AKAH catalog also lists them in 9.3x74R


In DWJ 10/1991 G.Freres published a rifle on such an action in 9.3x74R, proofed 1933 and marked by both Simson, Suhl and W.Glaser, Zürich. Full stocked as shown in the Glaser catalog.

Further I know one such action, once the personal rifle of the last Wilhelm Burgsmüller of the Burgsmüller, Kreiensen gunmaker, -dealer and mailorder clan, in 7x65R.

Edited by CptCurl (23/01/13 11:56 PM)

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: New to me Bartels stalking rifle. [Re: kuduae]
      #223208 - 09/01/13 09:39 AM

Both the "Ideal" and the Heeren single shots are superb little rifles. I'd be tickled to own either in 9,3X74R or 7X65R though I'm sure I would be very pleased with any example in good shape. I just don't see them that often and thus far I haven't had the opportunity to buy one. Perhaps my luck will change soon.

DORLEAC,

Your 6,5X57R is very nice, sorry to hear that you won't be making another.

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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