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SAHUNT
Sponsor


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: ozhunter]
      #223157 - 08/01/13 09:10 PM

Quote:

A good honest reply and it would be great if these posts are taken as constructive criticism as we are all in the spotlight of the common public.



I fully agree with you and thanks to Marcel for his post.

I think one of the big issues we as hunters are having is the perceptions of the non hunting community. Not all of them are greenies, but they have a wrong perception of hunting.

After reading an artlicle by Ian Michler about the cancelation of hunting licences in Zambia and some of the other articles he wrote, I again realise the seriousness of the wrong perceptions. The problem with perceptions are that they are seldom true. To change that perception takes a lot of effort and a very long time. Take the canned hunting of a Lion by Sandy McDonald, who knows what really happened there? Sandy was lured into a trap by a person pretending that he was unable to walk and filmed the hunt, we all know what happened. The perception is still clinging. In the article of Ian Michler South Africans are accused of flying Sable calfs out of Zambia, it is possible that it is true, but a perception is created that all South African hunters/outfitters/ph's are bad, which is very far from the truth. Yes we have a few bad apples, that creates a lot of bad publicity for the rest of us who is just like everybody else try to make a living. We are fortunate that at least we earn our money out of something we love.

The way hunting areas are closed in Africa, South Africa might be the last place on the continent where you will be able to hunt. Why are hunting closed in Africa? Are perceptions not playing a big part, I'm just wondering.

I think what happens in the bush must stay in the bush and with that I am not promoting unethical behaviour, the problem is that it does not matter what we do, we get hammered for it. In RSA we are very quickly accused of canned hunting etc, but it is only a very few guys who is doing it and the rest of us must fight out hands off to try and proof that we are not like that.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39245
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: MarvelAfrica]
      #223159 - 08/01/13 10:51 PM

Marcel

Thanks for joining and especially for commenting.

I planned to drop you a note to have a read of the thread comments on the weekend but saw your member application and approved it for you so thought you may have seen them anyway.

I think the some of the comments can be read constructively especially in regard to video presentation and material. As you say with regard to some of the criticism and feed/waterhole etc hunting being an elderly client, I would point out, MANY outfitters use less than sporting methods for some clients, elderly, crippled etc, to enable them to enjoy a safari, so that isn't really out of the ordinary. Unfortunately a video often doesn't put it in perspective. I know outfitters who have been praised for providing a hunt for a guy in a wheelchair, with a special shooting frame as a maneuverable shooting rest.

Not specific here in any way, I think fat unfit clients, should NOT (edited to add missing word!) fit into any special category of crippled, disabled or elderly clients getting special "methods".

One thing about NitroExpress.com, is many of the persons commenting have extensive and varied safari experience. So it can be unlike say facebook, which have a lot of people with little or no safari experience. The reaction can be far different, from clicking LIKE, which really means "follow a discussion" in any case.


As per my comments elsewhere, I think the video has a professional presentation feel to it. Irrespective of some of the footage subject matter. Something to consider for the next one maybe and also for your possible youtube planned TV "channel".

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (09/01/13 01:26 AM)

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: NitroX]
      #223160 - 08/01/13 11:54 PM

Marcel, a good reply I think. The water hole thing always puzzles mea bit,if youareafter croc or hippo then youare next to water but, for example, my KuduI spotted on my own while the PH wasaway looking for Buff spoor (main quarry), by the timeI found himand got him back, the Kudu was 500 yards or more from the the water,I nailed him eventuallyaftera bad first shot but does that count ?? The bow thingIam baffledabout, when doesa bow cease to bea bow ?Iam full ofadmiration foranyone who can shoot one of the buggers, of which ever variety. Timeas you sayis of the essence,I guessall of us would prefera 30-40 day hunt under tents butI canīt seeit happeningin the modern world. Lastly experience,I donīt knowabout the rest of you on here but thereare moments on the 4 safarisI have undertaken whereI would have gonea different route visa vis situation on shot butasa completeamateurI can only keep learning.I shotand killed the biggest crocI will ever seei n Mozambique 2 yearsago butI never recovereditasI tooka shot from the wrong positionand hit himin the lungs.As they say, "Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement"

sorry the editing isnīt working
best
Mike

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39245
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #223165 - 09/01/13 01:34 AM

The seven day modern safari needing a 40 day time period as compared to 50 years ago is just mis-direction in my opinion.

The amount of animals actually shot, the quotas on a licence were also a hell of lot more generous back then, including numerous cull animals for rations, baits etc. Hell I can remember the days when all culls for lion bait were completely free. No "trophy fee" required for them.

The no shooting over water thing has also been pushed a little extreme here IMO. It depends on how many watering points there are. If there are natural water holes spread along a river, or a flowing river, a person would have to be a complete idiot not to take an animal near water if presented.

The issue is these fenced properties with scarce watering points, sometimes only one or two. The sporting part of it becomes a little too easy as an animal must approach the only waterhole to drink.

Marcel mentioned the feeding issue. I too found that odd at first, not hunting an animal in a feeding area. what the? I thought, not hunting say antelope feeding in a field? Of course one will! But shooting an animal over a stock pellet trough is a big thing different. IMO anyway.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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MarvelAfrica
.224 member


Reged: 08/01/13
Posts: 8
Loc: South Africa, Limpopo Province
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: NitroX]
      #223177 - 09/01/13 04:47 AM


Hunting a passion, and a emotional topic with most serious hunters, the reason is simple as hunters and lately as gun owners we are aliens in the world.
The world around us is changing, and they think we have the wrong way.. but it is the way that got the world where it is today.

i can completely understand the responses and comment, from the ones that appear unreasonable to the ones making lots of sens,because it is a emotional subject and a passion every person reacts to it in accordance to their framework and exposure with the "Antienemy"..

And the most difficult challenge is finding that balance, i have posted vids on many forums with many different communities trying to find that perfect spot..
this video finally brought me to a point where i combined a combination of inputs and opinions i received from forums youtube and many other individual, and there i thought i understood the market..
i understood what hunters wanted to see..

And then NitroX introduced me to this forum, a completely different group of people, who from my short visit appears to be extremely passionate, emotional and protective about hunting.. my type of people i will add :-)

and everything changed.. i realized one thing, there is no one size fits all..

So as a topic, i would rule this "different folks, different strokes" and that is just that...

As from a critical ethical standpoint i got schooled !!!!, sometimes when you stick your head into something for to long you tend to miss allot of things around you, and this might be what happened with me, i started missing important things, not picking up on the small things that could create misleading ideas and perceptions.

and for that this topic was invaluable, just look at everything a second time and ask yourself what could i negatively perceive from this, had i done that it might have been just that little bit more acceptable.

My point is, thank you i learned from my brothers in hunting, even though we do not know each other,
i will certainly remember this forum on my next edit, i might just post it for scrutiny here before i publish it..

As for hunting practices, i am personally a walk and stalk hunter, even when i shot with the stick and two wheels :-), i prefer that close personal connection in the stalk, the challenge and the gain.

and i am also against this shopping basked hunting where clients "order" the species according to size area and qty..

so i can assure you, we do everything in our power to keep hunting as real and ethical as we can, we want even the newbie to go back and say, hell Africa is a challenge, but it is great..
instead of them going back and saying we fulfilled the order on date as specified.

So i will say thank you again..

But now i have a question for you guys, i just got a .44 Magnum scoped hunting revolver, my preference is walking and stalking as mentioned, but as i understand "Please understand that i am personally completely new to handgun hunting.." people hunt with handguns from blinds as would bow hunters..

What is your thoughts, handgun hunting, walk and stalk/Blinds ?

--------------------
Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris South Africa

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grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: MarvelAfrica]
      #223186 - 09/01/13 06:11 AM

I dont know what to think about your statement .

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MarvelAfrica
.224 member


Reged: 08/01/13
Posts: 8
Loc: South Africa, Limpopo Province
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: grandveneur]
      #223188 - 09/01/13 06:40 AM

Quote:

I dont know what to think about your statement .



Could you please clarify what part, i have this bad habit of saying many things at once :-)

--------------------
Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris South Africa

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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: grandveneur]
      #223191 - 09/01/13 06:54 AM

Quote:

I dont know what to think about your statement .



I do and that is a respectfull re-evaluation of some of my judgements after Marcel's honest apraisle of his video and the explanation for some of the segments that were not self explanetary. Maybe Marcel could include captions with some of the segments that give an outline for some of the shots. IE a cation (or voice over) that simply states that disabled, elderly, etc hunters are catered to in special circumstances. The herd buffalo might have a simple caption to explain that only soft point ammo is used in these circumstances to eleviate through & through's and suplementary wounding. Water hole shooting may indicate that many waterhole choices for the animals in that concession are available so give the understanding of choice for the animals rather than life or death need. And while Topheti may not have found the music hard to listen to there may be less edgy choices for the sometimes conservative hunting comunity.
I think we can all apreciate Marcell's posts for what they convey rather than the somewhat contreversial impression the video may have apeared to show and wish him the best.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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ozhunter
.400 member


Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: VonGruff]
      #223195 - 09/01/13 07:05 AM

The feed trough is a tricky one as Cats and Hyena are often taken from bait. However,it does involve so deception to get a predator onto a bait.
Hunting Crocodile or hippo on a river is certainly different than taking them from a water pan for obvious reasons.The saying "shooting fish from a barrel" comes to mind.

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grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: VonGruff]
      #223198 - 09/01/13 07:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I dont know what to think about your statement .



I do and that is a respectfull re-evaluation of some of my judgements after Marcel's honest apraisle of his video and tthe video may have apeared to show and wish him the best.



I dont know because after a statement by default a question arises whether we tried to justify ourself honestly or it is again marketing .

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MarvelAfrica
.224 member


Reged: 08/01/13
Posts: 8
Loc: South Africa, Limpopo Province
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: grandveneur]
      #223199 - 09/01/13 08:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I dont know what to think about your statement .



I do and that is a respectfull re-evaluation of some of my judgements after Marcel's honest apraisle of his video and tthe video may have apeared to show and wish him the best.



I dont know because after a statement by default a question arises whether we tried to justify ourself honestly or it is again marketing .



Unfortunately the only way of knowing my true intention would be to get to know me, words can only account for as much, the rest is made up by deeds..

I am sorry you feel that way, but i would believe over time you will get o know me and maybe you would find the answer..

--------------------
Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris South Africa

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MarvelAfrica
.224 member


Reged: 08/01/13
Posts: 8
Loc: South Africa, Limpopo Province
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: VonGruff]
      #223201 - 09/01/13 08:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I dont know what to think about your statement .



I do and that is a respectfull re-evaluation of some of my judgements after Marcel's honest apraisle of his video and the explanation for some of the segments that were not self explanetary. Maybe Marcel could include captions with some of the segments that give an outline for some of the shots. IE a cation (or voice over) that simply states that disabled, elderly, etc hunters are catered to in special circumstances. The herd buffalo might have a simple caption to explain that only soft point ammo is used in these circumstances to eleviate through & through's and suplementary wounding. Water hole shooting may indicate that many waterhole choices for the animals in that concession are available so give the understanding of choice for the animals rather than life or death need. And while Topheti may not have found the music hard to listen to there may be less edgy choices for the sometimes conservative hunting comunity.
I think we can all apreciate Marcell's posts for what they convey rather than the somewhat contreversial impression the video may have apeared to show and wish him the best.



Thank you !

--------------------
Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris South Africa

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grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1296
Loc: France / Germany
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: MarvelAfrica]
      #223202 - 09/01/13 08:15 AM

That is right , i dont know you . OK ! I believe them .

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HuntingSchneider
.333 member


Reged: 02/04/06
Posts: 381
Loc: Tamworth, NSW
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: MarvelAfrica]
      #223230 - 09/01/13 02:07 PM



Quote:


Not specific here in any way, I think fat unfit clients , should NOT (edited to add missing word!) fit into any special category of crippled, disabled or elderly clients getting special "methods".




Did somebody call me?
To a degree (a large degree) that's a good description of me, but I have never expected or received any "special methods". The only difference is I'm slower and need (or want) to have a break more regularly.
My Eland hunt in Namibia in 2005 was probably the hardest hunt that I have had to do. No concession from the PH. It was late November, so very hot. Hour after hour of squatting, crawling on hands and knees (bleeding knees by this point) with an occasional 5 minutes walking on hind legs as we were designed to do. That animal means more to me than any other because I worked BLOODY hard for it. It would have meant nought if I had shot it at a trough in the first hour.

Quote:


and i am also against this shopping basked hunting where clients "order" the species according to size area and qty..

so i can assure you, we do everything in our power to keep hunting as real and ethical as we can, we want even the newbie to go back and say, hell Africa is a challenge, but it is great..
instead of them going back and saying we fulfilled the order on date as specified.




I think I have only taken 3 animals on each of my hunts in Africa. To me the quantity of animals is not so important. I'm not a collector.
The important part for me was time in bush, things to see/hear/smell, small bits of random trivial info from the PH as we see things in the bush.
It is a total experience, not the number of animals in the salt.


Anyway, that's just my 2 bobs worth.




.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39245
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Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #223235 - 09/01/13 04:08 PM

Axel/HuntingSneider,

Ha ha, referring more to the back of bakkie "hunters" who give up on "long stalks" twenty five metres after leaving the bakkie. Your appearance in your photos is not the same as these sorts of guys. Ha ha, I can be arrogant about it having lost lots of weight myself in the last twelve months.



I am being a bit facetious when I refer to "special methods" for "special clients". Sure many things may be legal, but still not sporting in my opinion and often according to older and often still existing game laws. For a guy in a wheel chair, or so old he can not walk very much, if is IS legal (often it is not it seems btw) it is a way for these guys to enjoy a bit of life still. But lets not confuse enjoyment with sporting hunting fair chase. I am not being hypocritical. I enjoy a bit of spotlight culling, I would have a go at helicopter shooting of ferals if given the chance. I have shot game from a bakkie, over a waterhole etc, but lets not confuse it with sporting fair chase hunting.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: MarvelAfrica]
      #223236 - 09/01/13 04:15 PM

Quote:

And the most difficult challenge is finding that balance, i have posted vids on many forums with many different communities trying to find that perfect spot..
this video finally brought me to a point where i combined a combination of inputs and opinions i received from forums youtube and many other individual, and there i thought i understood the market..
i understood what hunters wanted to see..

And then NitroX introduced me to this forum, a completely different group of people, who from my short visit appears to be extremely passionate, emotional and protective about hunting.. my type of people i will add :-)

and everything changed.. i realized one thing, there is no one size fits all..

So as a topic, i would rule this "different folks, different strokes" and that is just that...



I find this interesting. I belong to many forums. These sorts of questions come up a lot on many of them. Especially where there are people that have hunted Africa a lot, especially with reputable guys.

As for facebook, it is quite a superficial environment, where everyone LIKES and has FRIENDS and serious discussions rarely happen. More an environment of the "Ooh and Aah" factor. The majority are complete new chums in a lot of ways.

NE may be different in that even if many members are not "old farts" most of us seem to like "old things" and also older ways of doing things, and perhaps older value systems.


Quote:

But now i have a question for you guys, i just got a .44 Magnum scoped hunting revolver, my preference is walking and stalking as mentioned, but as i understand "Please understand that i am personally completely new to handgun hunting.." people hunt with handguns from blinds as would bow hunters..

What is your thoughts, handgun hunting, walk and stalk/Blinds ?



Ha ha, someone else can comment on this.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: VonGruff]
      #223237 - 09/01/13 04:27 PM

Quote:

The herd buffalo might have a simple caption to explain that only soft point ammo is used in these circumstances to eleviate through & through's and suplementary wounding.



I have to say when I read that comment, about shooting into a herd, I went back to look for that scene. I remembered seeing herd of buffalo approached and then it ran off. Finding the scene a second time, the criticism was spot on in my opinion. It was a shot I would not have taken, irrespective of using a soft point or not. On my last elephant hunt, we stalked in and out beside a feeding herd of buffalo seven times looking for an old hard bossed bull. We never spotted one, but saw many impressive long immature soft sets of horns, which looked great to my inexperienced eyes! But the PH had been instructed, ONLY hard bosses! Anyway, while looking at the herd in the jesse, I had trouble picking safe shot paths with my open sighted .450 double, so the PH and I swapped rifles, I used his .416 Remington with a scope, while he watched the three or so elephant bulls walking in the same direction a few metres in front of us the whole time. They never knew we were there, the ele bulls or the buffalo. The point of this long winded story is, I would only take a shot with the .416 with soft points IF THERE WAS A CLEAR PATH BEHIND AS WELL.

A softpoint in the shoulder will probably stop. Through the lungs behind the shoulder? Maybe, maybe not? A fmj will penetrate through in a lot of places.

I think if we had a discussion on shooting buffalo in a herd, separate from any particular video, most experienced guys would say the same.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Cazadero
.375 member


Reged: 17/10/11
Posts: 561
Loc: Texas
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: SAHUNT]
      #223288 - 10/01/13 02:51 PM

Quote:

The problem with perceptions are that they are seldom true.



Jaco, the real problem is that even when based on truth, perceptions are usually worse than reality.

Which is why ethical hunters, while not apologizing for anything, should probably 1) constantly work to educate individuals who don't participate in hunting or other outdoor activities, and 2) avoid complacency with regard to participation or involvement in activities that will obviously spur a negative response.

Such as this particular video.

And in this day and age that also means internet distribution of any material that can fuel anti-hunting sentiments or otherwise be sensationalized.

I know, I know, ANYTHING can produce a negative response from the extremists. But since radical anti-hunters cannot ever be expected to approach the subject rationally, the line should drawn where good common sense will dictate.

I know dozens of people who look down on hunting but consume animal protein every day. Their hypocrisy lies in their daily denial of from where it came. The same people will have no problem with hooking a fish in the mouth and dragging him to his death in the boat, probably because fish can't be anthropomorphized so easily as animals. (in spite of Disney) The return on investment that comes from how we are perceived by the MAJORITY of the [voting] population will be far greater if we remember as hunters to police ourselves.

And just so everyone knows, AND to be 100% fair to Jaco, the SAHUNT cover page on his website specifically outlines the differences between stocked animals on fenced properties in South Africa as opposed to the other countries and their truly wild animal population.

Well done Jaco.

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SAHUNT
Sponsor


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: Cazadero]
      #223302 - 10/01/13 05:17 PM

[quote
And just so everyone knows, AND to be 100% fair to Jaco, the SAHUNT cover page on his website specifically outlines the differences between stocked animals on fenced properties in South Africa as opposed to the other countries and their truly wild animal population.

Well done Jaco.



Thank you Chistopher for your comment, I appreciate it.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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DaggaBoyBlog
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/12
Posts: 57
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Marvel Africa Hunting Safaris [Re: SAHUNT]
      #223470 - 12/01/13 03:17 PM

I thought the video was very well edited. It's not the music I listen to at home but a ratty cool, modern production that would certainly appeal to my decade-younger brother.

Definitely would not have shot at the buffalo in the herds nor any animal in a feed trough. However I have sat on waterholes in dry rivers for bushbuck, warthog, bush pig and baboon. The sable I took in Zim was an ambush at a small pan of water that would dry up soon after. We would started our buffalo tracking from spoor leading out of a waterhole at dawn, old school. If the right bull happened to be at the waterhole when I got there would I shoot? Think so. I certainly wouldn't shoo him away and then follow up.

Stay off the game farm hunts if you want a full on old school hunt, which for the most part means RSA and Namibia and Botswana plains game are out given the recent ban. I guess the limitation here for most will be dollars! Day rates, minimum days etc.

In 2009 I spent some time on a ranch and realised that it was a proper "ranch hunt" after day one. That was the nature of their business. So on day two the bakkie gt us to where we wanted to hunt then we got out on foot. The waterbuck and nyala were much less cooperative once we were on foot and an hour's hunt out of the bakkie became a few ads of tough hunting.

I think it's what the hunter maes of it. I hunt goats on a block in NSW and the cocky has a rule, if the goats see you the hunt is over, you lose! Shooting them is not very difficult at the bet f times and the mobs in this area aren't terribly bright, or perhaps too trusting. So set your own standards and make the hunt what you want it to be.



--------------------
DaggaBoy Blog - Hunting adventures of an ordinary bloke... http://www.daggaboyblog.com.au/

Edited by DaggaBoyBlog (12/01/13 03:47 PM)

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