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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia

.585 weight, barrel length and velocity?
#222751 - 02/01/13 10:24 PM

For a .585 caliber rifle, what weight, velocity and barrel length would you opt for? (750gr bullets, no scope)

I'm thinking 25-26" barrel, 2200fps, 13lbs? Anyone with an experience in this bore size make a suggestion on weights?

And no muzzle brakes/porting.
Would be built to English lines.

Cheers,
Ash

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: Ash]
#222752 - 02/01/13 10:46 PM

Your question is a little bit strange ! What do you want to buy , a DR 577NE or a bolt action rifle 585 Nyati or 577 Tyrannosaur ?

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grandveneur
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: Ash]
#222754 - 02/01/13 11:24 PM

In the hope that you want to buy a DR 577NE , and not the two other things , following suggestions :

750gr SP/FMJ bullet Kynoch or Woodleigh

26" barrels

13 Ibs to 14 Ibs

Expected velocity of the factory ammo 2050 ft/s with 28 " barrels , usually about 2000 ft/s .

The factory ammo is very expensive . The cartridge is not easy to reload !

My humble experience with this fine old english cartridge !

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Ash
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Loc: Australia

Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: grandveneur]
#222811 - 03/01/13 04:21 PM

.585 Hubel, bolt action. Can't afford a double yet! Aprentice wages aren't a blessing!
Sorry was tired when posted.

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Ash
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: Ash]
#222812 - 03/01/13 04:21 PM

And a diet of woodleighs are the order.

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grandveneur
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: Ash]
#222823 - 03/01/13 07:57 PM

Why this cartridge ?

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia

Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: grandveneur]
#222824 - 03/01/13 08:17 PM

Price, and availability. Plus there isn't really a classic .585 bolt caliber.

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grandveneur
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: Ash]
#222825 - 03/01/13 08:35 PM

For me bolt action rifles of this caliber are too big and not very easy to handle in the field . The reason why my choice fell on a 500 Jeffery . Anyway have fun by shooting .

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Ash
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: grandveneur]
#222882 - 04/01/13 06:30 PM

May I ask why you found it unwieldy?
If balance is achieved by a good smith, wouldn't it point as fine as a similarly weighted and balanced double?

I've never used a double rifle though, to confess an inexperience.

Thanks for the answers,
Cheers,
Ash

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grandveneur
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: Ash]
#222887 - 04/01/13 08:03 PM

Quote:

May I ask why you found it unwieldy?
If balance is achieved by a good smith, wouldn't it point as fine as a similarly weighted and balanced double?

The big doubles are more compact , but because of the weight also a problem if you have to shoot quickly . A big old DR is a nice rifle but not the first choice for hunting big game . A reason for the sucess of the 416 Rigby or the 404 Jeffery in a bolt action rifle at the beginning of the 20.century .

Imho today a bolt action rifle caliber .416 or .458 , scoped , is the best choice for a sucessfull big game hunting . Otherwise you have sometimes to adapt your hunting to your rifle .

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
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Loc: Australia

Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: grandveneur]
#222896 - 04/01/13 11:43 PM

Ah yes that makes sense.

I currently have a .458 win mag and a .416 Rigby necked up to .510. So am opting to go to the next size up (also having a smaller gun built around the same time, probably .318 WR, and then will go for a .375 or 9.3x62).

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grandveneur
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: Ash]
#222904 - 05/01/13 01:21 AM

A 416 Rigby necked up to .510 ?!! It's the first time i have heard of this . ...The 416 Rigby , the best cartridge of this class !!!

What is the advantage of it as compared to a 500 Jeffery for example ?

I understand your preference for big bores but in practice a "normal" big game rifle is sometimes better !

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fourbore
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Reged: 28/03/10
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: grandveneur]
#222920 - 05/01/13 07:57 AM

Quote:

A 416 Rigby necked up to .510 ?!! It's the first time i have heard of this . ...The 416 Rigby , the best cartridge of this class !!!

What is the advantage of it as compared to a 500 Jeffery for example ?

In way of defense for Ash choice, and my own future plans.

First, The 500 Jeff does not have a sterling historic reputation on several fronts.

I could think two advantages of 416-50: cheaper 416 brass and less potential feeding issues. Add to that no rebated rim esthetically unpleasing design (with unattractive short case, short neck).

I dont know. Would CZ 416-50 rifle hold 4 down while 500 Jeff only be three in the same?

My future plans (money permitting) include a 585 Hubel (built on a CZ550) for reasons stated by Ash. In my case, just for fun. I think its a real winner, compared to all the other over 50's, in a bolt rifle.

As for me in a 585, I was thinking a 24" barrel, maybe 13 pounds as minimum. I could balance it out with another pound of lead in the butt stock if needed (or remove and adjust over time). For me 2100 fps would be enough with cases trimmed to 3 inches.

I too would love to have a nice double, but not it is in the cards for me. If I did get a double, I would be looking at whole different type of gun. Maybe a 450/400 for real hunting. As opposed to a 577 fun gun.

For pure coolness and as long as I am dreaming on the web, I would really love an 8 bore double.

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500Nitro
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: fourbore]
#222922 - 05/01/13 08:19 AM

fourbore

"First, The 500 Jeff does not have a sterling historic reputation on several fronts."

Like what ?

Feeding ? Bullshit. 458 Win Mags have feeding problems
with certain bullets / bullet shapes.

Re problem feeding in 500J's, Only because gunsmith's don't do the work to get them to feed. If they were gunsmith's and did the research, they would know how.

Original Schuler's / Jeff's and copies of such fed fine
(at least seven were made from original's here in Aus) worked fine and killed fine. Same with 505 Gibbs.

Cheaper brass - for the number of shots people fire,
it is insignificant in the scheme of things and you
either want one or you don't, if you base your decision
on the cost of brass ....................

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fourbore
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: 500Nitro]
#222927 - 05/01/13 08:43 AM

I do have a 505 Gibbs, so much me being practical. My choice is based on tradition and just liking the Gibbs and CZ offering one. Now, the question was: why someone would choose a 416/50. I have no idea what that is or how it head spaces. This question posed with an inference that the 500J was better. Assuming 416/50 works, I can see there would be some advantages. Not short, fat and rebated or enormously large like the 505 Gibbs. Another modern choice is the 500 A square. There are advantages which could be debated by reasonable gun nuts. And, I think it fair to point out that 500J is far from prefect, past or present.

I believe all 24 original 500J rifles built by Jeffery were single column magazine holding only 2 rounds. That is one way to get good feeding. The Schuler was, I believe, a slightly dimensionally different round. That difference in brass may have been yet another issue in the past.

We can love our 505 or 500J but have to admit advantages can be found in some modern alternatives. If that is what a guy wants. I don't want one, sounds like at least two others here feel the same. I do like and want a 585 Hubel and as Ash said there is no traditional option there.

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500Nitro
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: fourbore]
#222929 - 05/01/13 09:10 AM

fourbore

What 505 do you have ?

I am pretty sure the originals had more than two in the mag.
I have one of the copies and will ask someone who owned
a number of original's.

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: fourbore]
#222931 - 05/01/13 09:28 AM

In the meantime i shot elefants and buffalos with my antiqued rifles 12,7x70 Schüler and 460 WM , and not less buffalos with obsolete cartridges like the 9,3x74R , 375 H&H , 10,75x68 , 11,2x72 Schüler .

Good luck in Africa !

Edited by grandveneur (05/01/13 09:31 AM)

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Ash
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Loc: Australia

Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: 500Nitro]
#222932 - 05/01/13 09:32 AM

Don't get me wrong, I love the classics. Have one hell of a list of calibers to one day own, from .318 to .577 nitro and most things in between! (examples: .404 Jeff, .375 h&h, .416 Rigby, .500 Jeff)

Got the 416/510 (will post picture of cartridge later) for a cheap entry into group 3. It holds 3 down staggered. It's not an aesthetics for a big bore (heavy fairly straight barrel and no open sights, just a 4x scope), but works for why I got it. The .458 is a zastava, first big bore I ever shot, and bought as a cheap entry into the big world. But hey, the .458 is a classic of the modern safari era =D I want to upgrade this rifle one day to a M70 in the same caliber.

Cheers,
Ash.

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DarylS
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: Ash]
#222941 - 05/01/13 10:44 AM

The .505 Barnes Supreme was a good one (I guess) and it fits in normal magnum rifles, like the BRNO ZKK 602 - or I suspect, the newer CZ550. Merely neck up some WTBY .460's.

The one I shot back in '75 was too much for me, 1st shot spun me around like a weather-cock. I was used to shooting my .375 BRNO and was not prepared for that 'shock'.

125gr. of IMR3031, I believe with a 600gr. Barnes. Whether that is a typical load or not, seems to me, that's what was written on the box. I recall the normal .460 WTBY load at that time, was 125gr. H4831 with a 500gr. Solid - the old H4831, BTW.

The owner fired 19 rounds, off the bench and merely looked as if he was shooting a .458 or lighter. Short little Hungarian fellow 5'3" and about 240 pounds. i didn't want to shoot it again. 8 or maybe 8 1/2 pounds at the most with the 4X Leupold scope, set way to far back for me. I was concentrating on evading the scope from killing me, when the truck hit my shoulder.

He told me it rang out 2,700fps with that 600gr. bullet. Too much for me then, and now.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hubel458
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: Ash]
#222943 - 05/01/13 11:01 AM

Ash- Bertrams got the brass anytime needed for my 585HE.
All the bolt ones here for others, are running 24-27" barrels.
And about 13-14 lbs. Nice thing is if you want power
just step it up, and if you want NE speed get slowe powder.
And with NE equivalent light loads you can handload
cases in the field, as no body sizing is needed, use full load
of real slow powder, just punch out primer and prime with hand
tool; push case into a shorty top die like I have here and push
in bullet hard over the powder by hand shoot again. Hell even
works with black powder and regular powder using
58cal minie ball slugs.And we are using same slugs in soon to be
made 12ga sabots. I think 58/585 cal are most versatile
big game slugs ever. I have tested weights from 300gr to 900,
soft, hard, lead, jacketed, etc, in about any style gun,
bolt, falling blocks, greener, break action, 87 lever, etc.
They all work great. I can outrun trex, with my case, in a
pissy ole NEF with long barrel..Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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fourbore
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Re: .585 weight, barrel length and velocity? [Re: hubel458]
#222945 - 05/01/13 12:44 PM

500N,

I have a CZ550 in 505 Gibbs from the custom shop in St Louis. That cost about $2700 a few years back. It has walnut stock, 24 inch barrel and other wise looks about like any other cz safari model rifle. A think it was a heck of a value. It has been as reliable and good looking a gun as anyone could ask for. No tinkering required.

To chit chat some more: I also went out and got a safari(?) cz550 (assembled in the check republic) in 458 Lott. Costing about $1,000. That gun may outwardly look about the same as the St Louis guns but it was a lot of trouble and just goes to show you get what you pay for in life.

I also have Winchester 375H&H and Ruger in 416 Rigby. Both are wonderful guns. FWIW, You cannot compare the Winchester 375HH to the CZ in 458 for the same ball park price. It seems odd that Winchester won't offer a 458Lott. If they do, I'll dump my CZ and get one. That will complete my battery, unless I go ahead with a 585 someday.

I am new to this forum, so; in the nature of full disclosure all my hunting is limited to N. American and my big 'safari' guns are just a hobby for me. I am on a limited budget. Gun quality and price is pretty subjective, there was a time I would never imagine paying 3k for a gun. I guess I consider my self pretty luck to come this far in life. Yet, I know its all relative and its become apparent I'll never be in the market for a nice double gun.

Its interesting to read a guy like Ash, is planning to assemble a set of big guns almost exactly the same as me. With no apparent need to justify each and every size, beyond the joy of ownership. Or thats just me - reading it my way again.

And this is totally irrelevant as I never will hunt Africa, but if I was, I would like to try my M70 in 375H&H and hope good shooting and a cool head would serve me well. But again, I dont know squat about Africa beyond my reading and make no pretense otherwise.

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