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fourbore
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Reged: 28/03/10
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Loc: NewEngland
Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70
      #222729 - 02/01/13 01:34 PM

I have a new No1 26" bbl, 7.5 lb, circasian stock Lipsey special. Its my dream ideal weight and barrel configuration in a 45/70 No1. I have mounted a Nikon omega scope. Looks and feels great.

I've shot it with two different factory 300 grain loads, Winchester and Remington. Although POI shifted a few inch both group over 1.5 inch @ 100 yards. I say over cause I only need 3 shots to get the general idea. Maybe this is normal for a Ruger No1, but it was a bit disappointed the week after I test fired my new CZ527 carbine in 223. The 223 will put three shots in one hole only slightly larger than one hole from the 45/70. And that was with cheapest Golden eagle ammo available. I am really tempted to try an Winchester 1885 Traditional Sporter in 45/70, extra weight and all (9 lbs!! OMG what are they thinking!!).

I am not ready to give up yet, but two loads almost identical performance. I like to use these 300 grain loads, but I will probably try something else. Is there a pet factory load that anyone has found to shoot well in the No1 45/70 or some other gun?

My goal would be ~1 inch (moa) so I could fool around and shoot some small game and was hoping to use same ammo I have have been with my iron sited Marlin 45/70. Is that a reasonable expectation or is 1.5-2.0 inch more the norm for a typical 45/70 with factory loads?

Searching the web, I have seen quite a few bragging size groups posted by 1885 owners and precious few No1 groups. And some complaints about No1 about forearms, which I don't quite follow. I would assume Ruger has this sorted out by now?

I cannot quite remember for sure, I thing both groups tended to be more horizontal than vertical, not that two three shot groups would tell all that much. Definitely not a vertical grouping.

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: fourbore]
      #222731 - 02/01/13 02:53 PM

fourbore I would run a few more groups first. Sometimes a rifle needs a few through it to sttle it down.

1.5 inch groups are in my experience the norm for most factory rifles and factory loads. Yes we hear about sub MOA groups but we are not hearing from the majority of shooters. Shot a lot os rabbits with my old M 94 in 30-30 and it was a 1.5 to 2 moa rifle.

If the rifle does not tighten its groups after a few more rounds through it,I would take the forend off and just rest the action blosk on the sandbag/rest and see hoe it performs.

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DarylS
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: Rule303]
      #222733 - 02/01/13 03:31 PM

There are hundreds (if not thousands) of articles & directions on how to get a Ruger #1 to shoot more accurately than it was as received.

I'd lay odds that overweight Winchester is more accurate than your lightweight #1 - maybe that's what they were thinking?

2 - 3 shot groups with cheap, run-of-the-mill ammunition is not a good indicator for judging the accuracy of a rifle that is broken in, let alone new. Break it in with all your ammo, cleaning every 5 shots or so, THEN try some good semi-custom .45/70 factory ammo and see how it shoots. You might even try the Hornady 325gr. stuff - still not semi-custom, but probably better than the RP or WW.

1st of all, the #1 was not a good choice for someone expecting bug hole groups from a big bore rifle. Typically, large bores can shoot, but you will probably need handloads to do it and in that rifle, maybe some 'work'.

Both my last .458's shot under an inch & a bit less (bolt guns). Both were wildcats, so needed handloaded ammo. Did every load shoot under an inch? No. That's the problem with handloads - you are stuck with what it does.

If you want to shoot weak ammo, try the 405gr. RP's. I'd about lay odds they will shoot into an inch and 1/2 or smaller. The same bullet handloaded to 1,800fps to 2,150fps, probably inch or better yet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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fourbore
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
      #222744 - 02/01/13 07:57 PM

Quote:

I'd lay odds that overweight Winchester is more accurate than your lightweight #1 - maybe that's what they were thinking?



I guess I would not bet against you unless those were pretty long odds.

Ok, more shooting is in order. I was not aware of the need for breakin was required.

And I better go pay more attention to one of those how-to articles on the No1. Be prepared to play with fore arm as 303 suggested.

I do see Cabelas lists the 325 grain loads.

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Tom30887
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: fourbore]
      #222747 - 02/01/13 09:02 PM

One thing to watch out for on the No1's is the quarter rib.

Their needs to be a gap (a few thou is ok) between the back of the rib and the action. If their isn't a gap as the barrel heats up and heat is transferred into the rib and it expands it can have a costly affect.

Its a similar affect to those who wish to bed the first few inches of their barrel around the swoop.


Most of the factory Ruger ribs are ok but I have come across a couple that were butted up on the action.


Tom.

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DarylS
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: Tom30887]
      #222784 - 03/01/13 06:23 AM

Tom is not just whistling Dixie about the 14 rib. This is probably why the Varmint rifles are generally more accurate - heavier barrels aside. Tests showed that the 1/4 rib would/could expand .007" in length. This of course makes it push on the action as well as arching which can cause other problems like double grouping or group shift with temperature.

Some guns exhibit all the accuracy problems, while others seem oblivious right from the box. Bedding the forend to the hanger, with no tension anywhere on the barrel is one method of bedding, while others say to bed solidly, and still others to install an 8x32 screw from the front of the hanger up to touch the barrel, giving even more adjustable pressure/tension at that point.

I relieved the touching at the rear of the rib on my #1 in .218Bee and was immediately rewarded with improved (excellent) accuracy with my Lil'Gun loads. Note - the rib screws usually seem to have been installed by a very large man with a large handled screwdriver.

Reducing the 1/4 rib to a 2 piece rib is one method of reducing elongation.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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fourbore
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Reged: 28/03/10
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Loc: NewEngland
Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
      #223825 - 18/01/13 10:18 AM

This site has suggestions right inline with what I heard here and a few more.

http://rvbprecision.com/shooting/accuracy-tips-for-the-ruger-1.html

I tried one thing today. I found the forearm wood touching the barrel. Rather than bedding or removing wood, the above site suggested shims. That was to place a shim between the hangar and the forearm wood. I played with 006, 010 and 015 shims and found with a 6 the contact area moved to the right and with 10 it was still touching on the right and a gap opened up at bottom. I ended up with two shims 10 and 15, but the 15 was "L" shaped so it tended to shift the forearm and just provide a nice uniform spacing.

Now an odd observation, the inside tip of the forearm looked like someone took a dremel to it and never applied any varnish? I assume that was factory, this was new in box ordered from Lipsey.

Well, I figured this would be just the ticket, horizontal stringing and horizontal stock pressure. Problem fixed ... time to test fire.

Using my cheep Remington HP (@100 yards)two shots fired - less than 1". Bingo! Third shot 3 inches low. $#!@ crap. Ok. Next I fire my new Hornady ammo. First two sots right through the 1" red spot I stuck on the paper. OK, ok, just give me one more and CRAP two inches to right!

I would say right back where I started. Maybe. Now it seems it wants to shoot. The 4 shots that look good, even from different ammo were two tight groups about inch above the other.

I guess I will try something else. The gun never even got warm. I am reluctant to fight those 1/4 rib screws.

I have to say this. I have two friends with NEF break open 243's that will both drive nails at 100 yards. I have an NEF 20ga shotgun that will group copper solids about as good as this No1. The forearm bolts right to the barrel. The guns are cheap as dirt. And almost as ugly. Nobody is hand loading or playing with shims.

Like the song says "make an ugly woman your wife" ?

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DarylS
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: fourbore]
      #223826 - 18/01/13 11:12 AM

You can try hard bedding to the barrel, however - the rule of thumb with 2 piece stocks, is you can have the fore end touching the barrel, or you can have the fore end touching the action's front surface, but not both.

It is a rule, not a law - more like a guideline.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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albertan
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Reged: 13/06/06
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
      #224879 - 06/02/13 06:13 PM

I have had good luck with the old 405 Grain Remington Coreloks in my Ruger #1. As for loads a good charge of IMR 3031 and a 350 grain Speer or Hornady is an old standby. My own load uses 58 grains of Vihta Vuori N-133 with a 350 grain Speer or Hornady. I use a Lee factory crimp die to put a good crimp on it.

I cradle the forend of the Number 1 when I shoot it off the bench. The old Remington load may be old fashioned, but a friend of mine hit a mature bull bison in the forehead with one and found that it had finished up in the third vertebra. He was impressed.

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tophet1
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
      #224881 - 06/02/13 07:36 PM

Quote:

You can try hard bedding to the barrel, however - the rule of thumb with 2 piece stocks, is you can have the fore end touching the barrel, or you can have the fore end touching the action's front surface, but not both.

It is a rule, not a law - more like a guideline.



Spot on.

Stick with it. The local gunshop owner had a No.1 in 45-70 and it could be really stoked up with loads a lot 'stronger' than factory offerings due to the design of the action (not being a lever gun). Maybe you need to try some handloads with a bit of oomph.

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DarylS
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: tophet1]
      #224897 - 07/02/13 02:23 AM

Hodgdon's Annual Manual shows loads for 3 different levels of action strength in .45/70:
28,000CUP and under for the weakest actions including Trapdoor Springfields
43,000CUP and under for the lever Marlins
50,000CUP (or therabouts) for Ruger #1's and Bolt guns.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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PTinMT
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Reged: 16/08/05
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: DarylS]
      #224999 - 09/02/13 07:27 AM

Problem #1: Factory ammo. Seriously. 1.5 inch groups with factory is GREAT, want better, reload. The example of the CZ527 in 223 is very relevant, mine groups about 2 inches at 100yds with PMC factory and I've shot groups as small as 3/8" for 5 at 200 with hand loads. The 45/70's I've worked with did significantly better with hand loads. The Marlin Guide Gun was a loser with factory ammo, at best 4 inch groups. Found a good load with H335. My Ruger #3 was very happy with 350gr bullets, didn't do as well with either 300 or 405's and preferred IMR4198. I've got a liner for a 12ga in 45/70 that shoots 12" groups, patterns is more like it, at 50yds with 300gr factory ammo and 2 inch groups with hand loads using 405s and H335. If you really don't want to reload for your 45/70 I suggest you get every brand and bullet weight available and do several trips to the range to find the "right stuff". With factory ammo prices you might be better off with just buying a basic reloading setup.

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458ONLY
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: PTinMT]
      #227894 - 03/04/13 01:09 AM

I've owned a pile of rifles (too many really), many in Big Bores, and most in .45-70. These include things like .300s, .338s, .375s and .458s. My very best Big Bore IS and has been a Ruger #1 in .45-70. Actually, I've owned 2. The first was slightly used and is now in the ownership of our second son. The second was NIB and I had it long-throated by .30-inch over 10 years ago.

A couple of things: 1) You NEED to handload to get the best it has to offer. STOP fooling around with factory stuff IF you expect the BEST.

2) That rifle, according to Ruger and head ballisticians that I know, is as strong as a .458 Win Mag and with the right loads will just about duplicate it! I sent my loads to a well-known powder company in the USA who tested them and they were surprised that it EQUALED a .458 WM. That was with an original 22" tube on the first #1 Ruger. The comment to me by the chief ballistics engineer was "You have just reinvented the .458 Winchester Magnum... What was the recoil like?"

My point is: The #1 Ruger in .45-70 is capable of MOA right out of the box with loads that create pressures intended for Big Bores. I've owned 2, as stated, a used and a new, and now for 10 years an "Improved", and I've NEVER had the forend off of any of them and they all would shoot MOA with the right stuff... including a 350 TSX at max velocity of OVER 2500 fps from my "Improved" version. My son owned a #3 in .45-70 and would shoot the same loads with the same accuracy.

Regarding Hornady's loads for the #1 in .45-70... You had better compare those with Lyman's with the same loads for the 500gr Hornady BEFORE you put much stock in Hornady's claims as to CUP!!!

At 1879 fps from the 500gr Hornady, the CUP is a MILD 39,100 from a 26" according to Lyman's manuals. If wanted, that can easily be boosted to 50,000 CUP, or more. (Multiply CUP by 1.18X for PSI). The Ruger #1 action will easily handle 60,000+ PSI.

You don't NEED to fool around with the mechanics of the rifle to obtain good loads. I've owned enough #1 Rugers to know that. If you want mild accurate loads, get into handloading for it. (And stop complaining! )

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Edited by 458ONLY (03/04/13 01:11 AM)

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bonanza
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: 458ONLY]
      #227901 - 03/04/13 02:30 AM

Big bore singles shoot like big bore doubles, heavy bullet will shoot high and light low. Slower = higher Faster = lower.

This can be a pain if you want to shoot heavy projectiles (500+) real slow (1500 fps) because the sights are not regulated for it.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DarylS
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Re: Accuracy advise for Ruger No1 in 45/70 [Re: bonanza]
      #227903 - 03/04/13 03:15 AM

There are custom ammo makers in the States who make higher than RP and WW level ballistics. This higher pressure ammo is suitable for the newer lever guns, but is still not loaded to the nuts for them, or for the Rugers, Brownings or Mausers.

The .45/70 is easily loaded on hand tools, especially for a single shot. A 'simple' Lee Loader is all that is really necessary - along with a good loading manual. Powder scales are never a waste of money.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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