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Astor
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Reged: 06/12/04
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Loc: Ontario, Canada
How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE?
      #22256 - 15/12/04 01:08 PM

I am contemplating the purchase of a .577. Since this is a black powder rifle I understand that the cordite load is 90 grains pushing a 650 grain bullet at 1950 ft. per second. This is suppose to generate 5500 ft. pounds of energy. The gun weighs 11 lb. 10 oz. The Recoil Calculator states that this should generate 66 ft. pounds of recoil. The heaviest rifle (in terms of recoil) that I have shot to date is a Ruger #1 Tropical in .458 with a 510 grain bullet (factory load). I did not find this offensive. Could it be compaired to a shot gun with slugs? I realize that everyones tolerance for recoil is different but I would be interested in your opinions.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: Astor]
      #22271 - 15/12/04 11:53 PM

The best advise I can give you is try it before you buy it.
That way it is your decision .

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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bonanza
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: Astor]
      #22273 - 16/12/04 12:43 AM

If it is really a BPE then its a real pussycat. Think of it as no worse than a .58 calibre muzzle loader with 130 grains of powder, but much heavier. That 458 you shot is much worse than any bpe will be.

BTW, BPE guns should never be loaded with smokeless powder. They could blow-up.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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500Nitro
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: Astor]
      #22282 - 16/12/04 09:03 AM


Astor,

It also depends on the gun, weight, stock, etc etc.
A badly fitting gun, hog back stock will kick alot harder.

The 577 BPE - it depends on the BP load you use but do NOT
use the cordite load you listed in this gun otherwise we may not
see any more posts from you !!!

The gun weight of 11lbs should soak up a fair amount of the recoil.

500 Nitro


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Astor
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: bonanza]
      #22285 - 16/12/04 11:10 AM

Thank you for the responses! I note that both "bonanza" & "500Nitro" cautioned me about loading a BPE with nito powder. In the Double Gun Journal they have a chap by the name of Sherman Bell who regularly writes articles on nitro for black conversitons for shotguns and rifles. It is this chap who recomended this load for a H&H Dominion BPE .577. This would be a "sister gun" to the one I am consdering. I have followed this chaps advise in the past and still have most of my fingers and one good eye (ha, ha). Comments gentlemen?

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500Nitro
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: Astor]
      #22288 - 16/12/04 02:23 PM

Astor,

Referring to English Guns and proof of English guns.

The British made Black Powder, Nitro for Black and Nitro Proofed guns.

Nitro for Black (often referred to as "Light Nitro" double circles is NOT
the same as full Nitro Proof.

I am afraid I will never recommend loading any gun with other than what it was proofed
for when made, unless it has been reproofed in the UK (or equivalent recognised country).

In my view, people in the US have some funny ideas on what is safe and what is not, expecially
when it comes to rechambering guns.

Finally, look at it this way - the English Proof laws were put there for a reason - an over
100 + years they have a wealth of experience and alot moe than what I "think" may be safe.

I know of a few guns that have blown up and most of the time it was to do with people
doing something wrong in the reloading stage !!!

Hope this helps. Just MHO.

500 Nitro







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400NitroExpress
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #22295 - 16/12/04 04:29 PM

The concept of using nitro equivalent in BPE doubles (Nitro for Black) is is not new and not American in origin. The British began offering smokeless shells (loaded with Cordite) for Black Powder Express rifles in the early 1890s and Kynoch offered them well into the 1950s.

From the 1910-11 Eley Brothers catalog under "Nitro Cartridges for Black Powder Rifles":

"These cartridges are loaded with Rifle Cordite and metal based bullets to give at 60 degress F slightly higher velocities than the Standard Black Powder Cartridges. They are perfectly safe in rifles of sound construction built for Black Powder, and are distinguished from the High Power Cordite Cartridges (which must on no account be fired in a black powder rifle) by the Lead Bullet with Metal Base. Smokeless charges giving pressures higher than black will not be used in Express Cases in conjunction with a Lead Bullet." -- In other words, smokeless shells loaded to black powder pressures specifically intended for Black Powder Express rifles - NOT "special" Nitro for Black rifles. Nitro for Black is black powder proof. The peak pressure required of a Nitro for Black "purple stripe" proof load was the same as for standard black because the standard pressure was the same.

The standard black load listed for the .577 2 3/4" Express was 160 grains black and a 520 grain bullet. The smokeless load offered was 73 grains Cordite and a 570 grain bullet.

For those who didn't see it, Sherman Bell's article "Finding Out for Myself, Part VII, Express Rifle Pressure Variables" in the Spring 2004 DGJ discusses the Black vs. Nitro for Black issue. A Henry .450 BPE with damascus barrels was used to develop loads that would regulate in the rifle and those loads were then pressure tested. A standard load of 120 grains of KIK ffg black and a 300 grain cast bullet gave a velocity of 1812 fps with an average pressure of 21,600 psi. The current Nitro for Black equivalent formula developed by Ross Seyfried (40% of black in IMR 4198) of 48 grains IMR 4198 with the same bullet gave 1952 fps and an average pressure of 21,700 psi. Pressure curves were similar. The black shot into 4" at 100 yards and the Nitro into 2 1/2". The Eley Bros. smokeless loading for the .450 BPE was 55 grains Cordite and a 270 grain bullet and Kynoch loaded 52 grains Cordite with both 325 grain and 365 grain bullets. The pressure rating for these was the same as standard black, 11 tpsi. For comparison the .450 Nitro Express, which uses the same case, was loaded with 70 grains Cordite and a 480 grain nickel jacketed bullet for 17tpsi.

Sounds like Seyfried and Bell have discovered the same thing the British did 113 years ago. The safety issue with these rifles is the peak pressure and the pressure curve, not the propellant used to produce it.
------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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470Rigby
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #22305 - 17/12/04 12:04 AM

400NE
In reply to:

The safety issue with these rifles is the peak pressure and the pressure curve, not the propellant used to produce it.





I totally agree. This issue was canvassed in some threads earlier this year (see Doubles ), but I would say that the pressure curve is more important than peak pressure.

There is some confusion about what is was being measured in the British Proofhouse pressure measurements. Leaving aside the issue of translating "tons per square inch" into modern transducer measurements, and the inherent limitations of the procedure, it was effectively a measurement of the pressure that the barrel, rearward of that point where the projectile had travelled to at the time that the pressure peak was reached. This coincides with that part of the barrel where the wall thickness is greatest, and where there is perhaps the greatest margins of strength.

It said nothing about the pressure levels that the barrel is subjected to as the projectile travels further down the barrel. The pressure curve will reveal something of this, but there is no way of knowing exactly what pressure each section of the barrel is subjected to, since the projectile will accelerate down the barrel at different rates due to a number of factors (powder burning rate, projectile weight, jacket and core construction / hardness, etc).

To illustrate this, consider the hypothetical situation of two loads with different bullet weights optimised through carefull reloading to produce the same peak pressure and pressure curve. Yet the lighter bullet will have a shorter barrel time and higher muzzle velocity. This means that the thinner sections of the barrel at the muzzle end will be subjected to higher pressures than the load with the heavier bullet, simply because the lighter pill will get to the muzzle quicker. This seems counter-intuitive, and it could be argued that such loads would be difficult to achieve in practice....but?

The problem is, nobody really knows what the safety margins are, since the original British proof system tells us nothing about that. So long as the pressure curve for a Nitro powder reload shows pressures below what is obtained on a modern Black powder load that approximates original ballistics, then that has got to be a reasonable starting point.

Sherman Bell, et al, have have at least bothered to to some homework to back up the notion that Nitro-for-Black loads can be gentler on vintage double rifles, rather than simply spouting the tiresome mantra about the perils of using Nitro powders in Rifles (and Guns) carrying Black Powder proof.

About at vacuous as the old furphy not shooting Nitro cartridges in Damascus barrelled shotguns, even if they are Nitro proved.





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400NitroExpress
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22306 - 17/12/04 02:02 AM

.470:

Good points. Yes, the wall thickness of double rifle barrels built with proper weight distribution can get pretty thin up forward. That is why slow burning propellants in Nitro Express rifles don't make sense to me - the difference in burn rate from the original cordite is too great. The pressures in the thin forward sections might be significantly greater than was ever the case with cordite. Peak pressure alone rarely tells the entire tale.
---------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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DUGABOY1
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: bonanza]
      #22321 - 17/12/04 11:58 AM

In reply to:

BTW, BPE guns should never be loaded with smokeless powder. They could blow-up.




The above is absolutely untrue! There are smokeless loads for all "CARTRIDGE" BPE cartridges, and in many cases those were developed by the makers of the cartridge, and called "NITRO FOR BLACK" loads, and sold commercially! One simply must know what he is about when loading these NFBLs.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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DUGABOY1
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: Astor]
      #22323 - 17/12/04 12:06 PM

ASTER I have had several BPE rifles, and two of them have been 577 BPEs. A .577BPE in a 10 1/2 lb double rifle is no worse than a high brass 12 ga 2 3/4" shotgun. When you get into the heavy recoil, is when you get to a .577NE 3" with a 750 gr solid in a 12 lb double. Then they become unpleasent to carry, and shoot! Don't worry about the BPE they're fun rifles, and there is something very sattisfying about the big holes they leave in the paper, that can't be described in words, you have to do it to know! Enjoy your big double smoke pole!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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bonanza
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #22334 - 18/12/04 12:50 AM

Dugaboy,

I don't own a BPE, but have met several men who do (One was Ernie Stallman of Badger Barrels).

When I asked about loading smokeless loads, each one said "No way". When pressed for an answer why, each were of the belief that the guns were unsafe with smokeless. I was heavily into black powder for a while and learned quite a bit about the properties of BP and Nitro, fascinating. I learned that black is very forgiving and that nitro is very unforgiving. I won't go into the pressure curves, shock waves, etc - because I know you know it already, but If it were my face(hand) that was inches away from a 100+ year old gun proofed for BP - I think I'd stick with BP.

BTW, what airline did you work for and what did you do?




--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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Rusty
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: bonanza]
      #22336 - 18/12/04 01:48 AM

Just got my DGJ and that is an interesting article!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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DUGABOY1
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: bonanza]
      #22337 - 18/12/04 03:04 AM

In reply to:

Dugaboy,

I don't own a BPE, but have met several men who do (One was Ernie Stallman of Badger Barrels).

When I asked about loading smokeless loads, each one said "No way". When pressed for an answer why, each were of the belief that the guns were unsafe with smokeless.




They are welcome to their opinion, and you your's,and they, and you are right, partly! Individual cartridge rifles are unsafe for smokeless, but those are usually unsafe to shoot at all. however, if you will refere to the post by 400NitroExpress above, you will learn the facts, set forth by the rifle, and ammo makers themselves. 400NitroExpress is as knowledgable as anyone I know about double rifles, and the loading there of. There is one rule you never load a MUZZLELOADER with smokeless, but cartridges are so loaded all the time, and have been since smokeless powder was invented! It is simply a matter of knowing what you are doing!

A quick look in any book on the history of cartridges, will yeald pleanty of "NITRO FOR BLACK" loads from every factory that was in business at the begining of the trasition, from black to smokeless. Most of the failiers were due to weak brass, not rifles! A good example is the 45-70 Gov as loaded by the factory, today. It is loaded with smokeless, but is safe in the old black powder rifles.

PS: I worked 31 years for American Airlines. I started in Aircraft maintenance,in El Paso Texas,in 1965, then went into airfreight, and ended up transfereing to DFW in 1982, was a zone coordinator for a time, and finaly running a BMAS office,till I retired in 1996!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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NE450No2
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #22344 - 18/12/04 12:55 PM

I even use Nitro FOR Black loading techniques to load lead bullets and lighter than normal jacketed bullets in my 450 No2. They are fun to shoot [almost no recoil] and have power equal to modern 45/70 loads. Fine for deer and pigs.
400 grain cast at 1822 fps.
405 grain jacketed at 1800 fps
300 grain jacketed at 1878 fps.
These loads shoot and regulate with the sights to 50 yards.
Because they are slower than the full power loads they have more drop at 100.


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webley
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: bonanza]
      #22418 - 19/12/04 10:38 PM

Hello Bonanza,
I've got a couple of Ernie Stallmans barrels & they are wonderful - however I'm not sure I can say the same for his advice to you regarding smokeless powders in BP proofed guns.

The fact that correct 'Nitro for Black' loads are not only safe (assuming a gun that's in sound condition) but are also 100+ years old in concept seems to have escaped the notice of some 'experts'. Perhaps this is because many 'Nitro for Black' loads were loaded by British companies for British guns & used mainly in Commonwealth' countries.
However as pointed out by others the current factory 45-70 loads are 'N for B' loads.

BP is as you said very forgiving. Loading smokeless powder even for a modern gun requires far more care & has far more variables. Nitro for black loads are simple to make up but do need care in the research of the correct load. This does not mean though that smokeless cannot be used in a BP gun.

Perhaps the most foolproof powders ever produced were the old 'bulk' powders - all the advantages of smokeless but also the ease of loading of BP (I wish they were still around for certain purposes).

It's been shown often enough now that the pressure curves of BP & that of a suitable smokeless powder for the job in hand are quite similar. All a barrel knows is that there is a certain pressure at a certain point. The barrel does not care about the chemical makup of the powder that produced that pressure.

Most original BP loads for double rifles produced around 10 tons peak pressure. The original N for B loads produced the same pressure or normally less. The modern N for B loads (like those quoted in Graeme Wrights book) produce under 10 tons - more like 8.5 tons on average.

Regards
Webley


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pwm
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: webley]
      #22422 - 20/12/04 12:52 AM

Hodgdon tripple seven is such a bulk powder but there was a discussion about this just now on the british militaria forum about tripple seven. it seems that this volume for volume powder is working good under 100 grains blackpowder equalize but giving higher pressure in blackpowder express cartridges like real nitro loads

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webley
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: pwm]
      #22454 - 20/12/04 07:49 PM

Hello PWM,
Hodgen Triple 7 may be loaded by bulk but as it's not the same in characteristics as the old bulk powders which were wonderful for shotgun loads - powders like 'EC' & 'Smokeless Diamond'.

In order to duplicate some 1920's shotgun loads for comparison purposes I recently used some of an old stock of EC in a shotgun - which resulted in basically no noticeable smoke & no more residue than most modern smokeless powders (the old powder gave the cexpected velocity as well after 60+ years).

Earlier this year I watched a fellow club member use Triple 7 in a 12 bore shotgun – smoke & residue were far more akin to what I’d expect from Pyrodex (although being far easier to clean).

Triple 7 seems a very useful powder but it’s not a modern replica of the smokeless bulk powders such as 'EC' and was not intended to be by Hodgdon. I don't think a single powder could perform both roles as the requirements of both.

However the existence of Triple 7 shows that it would not be a great step for Hodgden to come up with a powder that for shotguns at least would allow the original bulk powder loads & techniques to be used (but it’s admittedly of limited interest to most & thus the demand for such powder would be small).

As an aside - I wonder how much longer Pyrodex will be produced as 777 seems to do everything & more.

Regards
Webley


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tinker
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #334141 - 03/11/19 05:53 AM

Quote:

The concept of using nitro equivalent in BPE doubles (Nitro for Black) is is not new and not American in origin. The British began offering smokeless shells (loaded with Cordite) for Black Powder Express rifles in the early 1890s and Kynoch offered them well into the 1950s.

From the 1910-11 Eley Brothers catalog under "Nitro Cartridges for Black Powder Rifles":

"These cartridges are loaded with Rifle Cordite and metal based bullets to give at 60 degress F slightly higher velocities than the Standard Black Powder Cartridges. They are perfectly safe in rifles of sound construction built for Black Powder, and are distinguished from the High Power Cordite Cartridges (which must on no account be fired in a black powder rifle) by the Lead Bullet with Metal Base. Smokeless charges giving pressures higher than black will not be used in Express Cases in conjunction with a Lead Bullet." -- In other words, smokeless shells loaded to black powder pressures specifically intended for Black Powder Express rifles - NOT "special" Nitro for Black rifles. Nitro for Black is black powder proof. The peak pressure required of a Nitro for Black "purple stripe" proof load was the same as for standard black because the standard pressure was the same.

The standard black load listed for the .577 2 3/4" Express was 160 grains black and a 520 grain bullet. The smokeless load offered was 73 grains Cordite and a 570 grain bullet.

For those who didn't see it, Sherman Bell's article "Finding Out for Myself, Part VII, Express Rifle Pressure Variables" in the Spring 2004 DGJ discusses the Black vs. Nitro for Black issue. A Henry .450 BPE with damascus barrels was used to develop loads that would regulate in the rifle and those loads were then pressure tested. A standard load of 120 grains of KIK ffg black and a 300 grain cast bullet gave a velocity of 1812 fps with an average pressure of 21,600 psi. The current Nitro for Black equivalent formula developed by Ross Seyfried (40% of black in IMR 4198) of 48 grains IMR 4198 with the same bullet gave 1952 fps and an average pressure of 21,700 psi. Pressure curves were similar. The black shot into 4" at 100 yards and the Nitro into 2 1/2". The Eley Bros. smokeless loading for the .450 BPE was 55 grains Cordite and a 270 grain bullet and Kynoch loaded 52 grains Cordite with both 325 grain and 365 grain bullets. The pressure rating for these was the same as standard black, 11 tpsi. For comparison the .450 Nitro Express, which uses the same case, was loaded with 70 grains Cordite and a 480 grain nickel jacketed bullet for 17tpsi.

Sounds like Seyfried and Bell have discovered the same thing the British did 113 years ago. The safety issue with these rifles is the peak pressure and the pressure curve, not the propellant used to produce it.
------------------------------------





Another great discussion, and more of the voice of our late friend, 400

I've been working with a handgun wildcat this week, and just now found this while punching stuff into the search box.

Always good to revive old topics.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Sarg
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: tinker]
      #334146 - 03/11/19 09:13 AM

I wish I could find one to shoot lol !

Been on the hunt for a Top Lever Hammerless .577 BPE-LN for 15yrs or so !

Well one I could afford & was a reasonable rifle to, the couple of .577 hammer rifles I had & shot let you know when they went off with the 650gr slug at around 1850fps + thats for sure !

Got two .577 revolvers now, must get a load for them to soon.


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3DogMike
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: tinker]
      #334147 - 03/11/19 09:28 AM

Interesting “Zombie” thread from 2004.....

I was not convinced that the OP’s calculations were correct as to his original question regarding .577 BPE recoil and the mentioned .577 2 3/4” 90 Cordite 650 grain bullet load

- The .577 90-650 equivalent load (1950’/sec) in an 11lb10oz rifle would be ~92.5 foot pounds (not 66) This is notwithstanding that the .577 90-650 was NOT a “Light Cordite” or Nitro for Black....it was a full Nitro loading for Nitro proved rifles.

- A .577 2 3/4” BPE was variously 6 Drams with a 520-570 grain copper tube or solid bullet. An 11lb 10oz rifle with 6 Drams of BP would have ~74.5 foot pounds of recoil with the 520 grain bullet. As Sarg mentions above, the usual NfB load was 75 grains Cordite with the 650 grain bullet.

- the mentioned Ruger No.1 in factory .458 Win Mag would be around 67 foot pounds depending on weight.


My 1902 Webley .577 3” weighs 11lbs 6oz and while the recoil of a 90-650 equivalent load @1950’/sec is, to my notion, not as “sharp” a whack as a Ruger No.1 .458, it is a whole lot more recoil.
As an aside; the rifle would take it but I have no interest in shooting a modern “Full Nitro” .577 100-750 in my Webley. There would be, as the saying goes, “a loss of snot and enamel on both ends”.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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TH44
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Re: How "bad" is the recoil of a .577 BPE? [Re: Sarg]
      #334149 - 03/11/19 09:48 AM

Sarg - I found the recoil on my I Hollis .577 - 3" BPE quite acceptable (12 lb rifle) with a 560 grain lead bullet ahead of 160 grains BP (1650fps ish)

See my comments elsewhere here about Cal's .600 and .577 Nitro in Alaska last year, no comparison

Good luck in your searches

TH44


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