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Caprivi
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8x51 ???
      #220262 - 26/11/12 09:51 AM

Rough but cheap and interesting

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=318588702

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lancaster
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220281 - 26/11/12 06:01 PM

yes it is














looks like a teutonic made sporter
the 8x51 is an rare and interesting round beating the 7,62x51 for some years. maybe its wrong and the rifle is actually chambered for the 8x54 swedish.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (02/12/12 03:03 AM)


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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: lancaster]
      #220310 - 27/11/12 01:59 AM

???? Just may need to bid on it.
I was thinking 54 or 57mm case myself........the obscure 51mm in a "Swede" would be odd for sure.
I was liking it for the the action as well as the lines of the stock. May be useable to make into a pattern.

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Igorrock
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220329 - 27/11/12 06:31 AM

Lancaster, could it be this ?

http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/122981

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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Igorrock]
      #220387 - 28/11/12 02:11 AM

I may have made a deal on it. Will be worth it for the action alone to me I think.

Seller says a cast was made and a few fired rounds, so ??? I will try to get those as well if the deal happens.


...............so aside from a trim and handy rifle of more than adequate hunting performance, what does a simplistic, excessive compulsive pragmatism such as myself, do with such a rifle ???
While the plains of Wyoming are not conducive to a iron sighted light medium, I would think any future hunts east or south for hogs or deer in the riverine would be rather entertaining with a rifle such as this. Besides this purchase would still allow a "need" for a scope 6.5 or such to procure later

........I have had a bit of a rekindling of the "Fraser" bug of late and found this while looking at/for pre-98 mauser actions. The thinking was that I would re-create a "Fraser" of my own, not having the means, nor would I spend that, had I the means to procure a proper Daniel Fraser bolt action. Conversation leads me to me to think it is a bit nicer in hand than the photographer has captured. The simple childish joy of some new oiled wood and engraving "8x51mm" at the chamber is not lost on me.

Now all of this dwaddle said, would you pursue this or contact someplace like Simpsons LTD and merely pick up a useable mdl 46 for not much more ?????

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lancaster
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Igorrock]
      #220404 - 28/11/12 06:34 AM

Quote:

Lancaster, could it be this ?

http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/122981




yes, if 8x51 it must be the mauser kurz. one of the special cartridges made for the famous kurz action.

the cartridge is very rare and I never had such a rifle in my hands before. thinking brass can be made by 308 Win brass simply necking it up.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220405 - 28/11/12 06:38 AM

Quote:

I may have made a deal on it. Will be worth it for the action alone to me I think.

Seller says a cast was made and a few fired rounds, so ??? I will try to get those as well if the deal happens.


...............so aside from a trim and handy rifle of more than adequate hunting performance, what does a simplistic, excessive compulsive pragmatism such as myself, do with such a rifle ???
While the plains of Wyoming are not conducive to a iron sighted light medium, I would think any future hunts east or south for hogs or deer in the riverine would be rather entertaining with a rifle such as this. Besides this purchase would still allow a "need" for a scope 6.5 or such to procure later

........I have had a bit of a rekindling of the "Fraser" bug of late and found this while looking at/for pre-98 mauser actions. The thinking was that I would re-create a "Fraser" of my own, not having the means, nor would I spend that, had I the means to procure a proper Daniel Fraser bolt action. Conversation leads me to me to think it is a bit nicer in hand than the photographer has captured. The simple childish joy of some new oiled wood and engraving "8x51mm" at the chamber is not lost on me.

Now all of this dwaddle said, would you pursue this or contact someplace like Simpsons LTD and merely pick up a useable mdl 46 for not much more ?????




if you have the money and the place to store buy it

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Huvius
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: lancaster]
      #220417 - 28/11/12 09:52 AM

Well, I just did a Yahoo image search for a "Swedish Model 46" and I damn near forgot all about Mausers!!

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DarylS
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Huvius]
      #220418 - 28/11/12 09:57 AM



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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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StephenCoker
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: DarylS]
      #220420 - 28/11/12 10:19 AM

LOL Huvius, I bet you did!

Attempting to get back to Mausers....

Either way it sounds like you have a good foundation! As to the 46s, their quality is outstanding. That goes for Mauser's and the variety alluded to by Huvius! Having used both Husqvarna and Carl Gustav 96 actions (sporting and military models) for projects they're just simply outstanding to work with. I do have several 46s and 146s that haven't been touched and I'll keep them that way.

Fraser typically used the 93 action with minimal differences such as the flat-bottomed bolt face, and some changes to the gas escape, and the cocking piece. Let me know when you want to get started! And don't worry about the practicality of such a rifle in America's Serengeti. We can do Fraser mounts. They look quite nice when paired with an appropriate vintage scope. Speaking of Fraser projects, I'll be shaping up a trigger guard and bottom metal tonight in the Fraser style. I'll post pics.

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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #220428 - 28/11/12 03:06 PM

Igorrock, Thanks, good info.

Lancaster, I do, Ido and I did. Sent the funds today.

Huvius, being a bit of a Prude, I didn't dare to Google it :):)

Stephen, Agree with first paragraph. Thanks for 2nd para.

I have wondered on what actual action version Fraser would have used. I had thought all 93's have the flat bottom bolt face. As for the "get started", being a bit of a 6.5 junkie as well as a Fraser junkie, I am thinking the Serengeti would be better served with a "Coker/Fraser-izied" 6.5x55...... Or a 7.65arg, or a 7x57, or a .303, or something really obsure like a .242 or a .240apex..............

I am assuming this 8x51 will be a ".318" Obviously I will slug, cast, measure everything. I guess there will be dies to make, brass to form (yes, I believe the .308 will work) make a swage.......Looks like the new workshop will get a new project

I see there where factory loads in 157gr thru 196gr. I am thinking something like a 200-ish projectile with 35-ish Varget for 2000-ish. The cool factor of a 170 32spec Flat Nose notwithstanding

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StephenCoker
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220429 - 28/11/12 03:26 PM

I've got a 6.5x55 barrel that's been turned to match the profile from an original Fraser magazine rifle on the bench presently. It's for a take down, so about to get stared on fitting the Fraser thumbscrew and the bite for the Deeley latch. I like your thoughts on the ballistics of your new toy - quite practical.

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Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.


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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #220430 - 28/11/12 03:33 PM

All sounds cool. Please start a thread on this Coker/Fraser project. We have "heard" bits and pieces of this 6.5 TD, put it all together in one place for us.....:):):)

Thanks, I do tend to be a bit practical............

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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220431 - 28/11/12 03:44 PM

Huvius, try this.......

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info_2...6055064a137dd5a

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eagle27
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220433 - 28/11/12 04:18 PM

I have loaded ammunition for an 8x51 many years ago. The owner of the Mannlicher rifle had dies and it was a simple matter to run 308Win cases in the FL die and load up. I cannot recall the bullet weight or powder I used and have not kept the records when transferring my data to excel database but I do know the projectiles were Norma .318" diameter which I was using for reloading in the 32 Remington I had at the time. I don't think they were as heavy as 196gr so were possibly around 150gr.

The load I developed was accurate and the rifles owner killed quite a few red deer with it. Because of the possibility of the 308Win headstamped ammo being confused with 308W or vice versa I applied a colour to the primers and a warning on the ammo boxes.


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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: eagle27]
      #220471 - 29/11/12 02:24 AM

Thanks for the input eagle27. Indeed a 150gr would be sufficent, but a 196 sounds so cool.
It may re-new my cast bullet habit as well. I have/had a wonderful old Lyman mould with a HP plug in about 215gr sized and GC. In searching for info, I have notice many references to this chambering in MS. More so than referring to it being used in a MauserKurz.

After it arrives I will make to cast and measure. Have not checked, but wondering if I ca make a die off of a 57mm reamer........

I will have to look but I think I have some 308 or 358 without any head stamp on them......

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DarylS
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220477 - 29/11/12 02:36 AM

57mm reamer will have too small a shoulder, if the 8x51 is actually close in shoulder to the .308 (.454"). The .454" is typical for an Ackley Improved standard case.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: DarylS]
      #222189 - 22/12/12 03:40 PM

It has finally arrived today.....very long story of a difficult seller. Well most of it arrived. No bolt, forgot to ship it ??? and according to USPS data it should arrive on Monday.

Anyway, first glance, I like it. Bore looks good enough, overall condition is good enough.....
Second first glance, the "cast" supplied is wax, not so very conducive to best measuring so it will get some cerasafe. Looking over these supplied casts and spent cases, I can say that I think it is a .318" groove and I can say that I think it is NOT a 8x51mm. It is not a 8x57 either. The cast shows a case longer than a 51mm, the fired case reveals this as well, but is shorter than a 8x57. Future tests will tell, but am suspecting a 8x54. If so that will call for a 6.5x55 donor case as opposed to a .308 size

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Edited by Caprivi (23/12/12 05:16 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #222196 - 22/12/12 05:57 PM

8x54 Krag was quite common caliber in sweden.



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lancaster
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Igorrock]
      #222197 - 22/12/12 11:43 PM

make sense in swedish mauser sporter, more than the 8x51 kurz

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: lancaster]
      #222208 - 23/12/12 03:14 AM

Yes - iirc Tradeex sells 8x54's in Swedish Mausers.

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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: DarylS]
      #222253 - 23/12/12 03:38 PM

As would be normal with this purchase. The bolt is in town, but USPS didn't deliver it today. Maybe monday.
Anyway, it got disassembled, scrubbed, bore foamed, bore slugged (it is a .323" bore) chamber cast (all measurements say 8x54mm Krag Jorgensen).
I dummy-ied up some cases (R-P 6.5x55) with assorted dies I had. I will load them and fire form for a better chamber image.

In another thread Daryl S eluded to gathering odd dies for future projects.....very sound advise, wish I heeded it more.

I have a LEE 8x57 sizing die coming that I will shorten and lap out to clear the the fatter 55mm case. I like the tapered expander of the LEE dies. I will anneal a few cases and try expanding them, maybe they will be a bit prettier.

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To live life as it is handed to me from God

Edited by Caprivi (23/12/12 03:39 PM)


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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Caprivi]
      #222254 - 23/12/12 03:57 PM

In researching this, I found from GOOGLE where the seller, bought it on AuctionArms. I then found where that seller bought it thru Simpson LTD. They listed it as a 8x51. They have sold many 8x54's and 57's, maybe a typo ???

As a 8x51mm it was intriging, as a 8x54mm a bit less so ??? Why is this ??? Turns out to be common ??? Too close to the 8x57's ??? I really like the stock profile, the action is fine, just feels nice, been awhile since I had a iron sighted rifle to practice with........


In looking this over, some observations. The stock is a fine fiddleback walnut cut down military stock. The rounded grip pistol grip is a obvious add on, cleaning rod hole filled, small filler pieces added in barrel channel where military rear sight was. I suspect that the original military 6.5 barrel was re-bored to 8mm, then the chamber cut. The existing brass would easily be made into 8x54 on production machinery.

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DarylS
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Caprivi]
      #222278 - 24/12/12 03:07 AM

Does the 8x54 have the same base and shoulder measurements as a 6.5x55? If so, would it not be easier to open up the neck area of 6.5x55 dies for the 8x54 Krag chambering? Once the dies are annealed, chucking reamers would probably work, or simple 8x57 chambering reamer for the bullet seating die and rougher for the sizer die - if such reamers are still available for rent in the US?

--------------------
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"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
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Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: DarylS]
      #222285 - 24/12/12 07:30 AM

Daryl, the 8x54 and the 6.5x55 have the same base diameter and shoulder location and diameter. The neck is longer on the 8, but am guessing that necking up the 6.5 will lengthen it.

Duh' should have thought that way......Yes, opening a 6.5 die would be the smarter way to go. If I stay with the cheaper LEE die, I can swap out to there tapered 8mm expander.....Thanks for that.

If I need to, do you have a recommendation on annealing the die ???

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Edited by Caprivi (24/12/12 11:29 AM)


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