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Bonde
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Loc: Norway
Hunting elephant with a hammergun?
      #222128 - 22/12/12 01:41 AM

I'm looking into buying a double rifle, and have come across a sound jeffery .450-400 3" hammer double.

How would it be to hunt elephant with a gun like that?

Is it very slow on the second shot - like a boltrifle?
I assume that one with practice would be able to shoot rather quick cocking the second hammer during the return of the recoil from the first shot?
I suppose that cocking both hammers at the same movement would be a bit avkward? Pull one at a time?

Is it a difference between the ones with an underlever, and those with a toplever?

I'd very much like to hear from those that hunt with hammerguns!

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Westley375
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: Bonde]
      #222137 - 22/12/12 02:52 AM

I love hunting with Hammerguns !! On most of mine the gun can be left open with both hammers cocked (it is much safer that way as well). Then you simply close the gun and shoot. Hammerguns are the coolest of the Double Rifles. My advise BUY IT you'll enjoy it more than you think !!! I've killed Elephant with the 450-400 3 1/2 But like with all Doubles PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.

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casper50
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: Westley375]
      #222156 - 22/12/12 07:33 AM

Bonde is it a BPE or nitro?

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Bonde
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: casper50]
      #222158 - 22/12/12 08:03 AM

It is a nitro, made 1902-1904 sometime.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
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bonanza
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: Westley375]
      #222160 - 22/12/12 08:14 AM

I really love my top-lever hammer rifle cuz it carries so nicely with the round action. I prefer closed and de-cocked.

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eagle27
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: bonanza]
      #222161 - 22/12/12 08:34 AM

Why is it slow for the second shot, surely you cock both hammers otherwise what is the point of a double. A double gun in good order should not 'double' irrespective of being a hammer with both cocked or hammerless which have both cocked anyway?

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xausa
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: Bonde]
      #222169 - 22/12/12 10:31 AM

Quote:

Is it very slow on the second shot - like a boltrifle?




If you are referring to the type of bolt rifle shooter who takes the rifle down from his shoulder to cycle the action between shots, then a bolt rifle is "very slow". However, those of use who have shot with bolt rifles competetively can tell you that an experienced shooter can cycle the action by the time he has recovered from recoil without ever taking the rifle from his shoulder.

As far as a hammer double rifle is concerned, cocking the hammers is as easy as cocking the action of a non-self cocking action like the Krieghoff, which has no safety, but depends on both barrels being cocked by means of a thumb operated slide immediately prior to firing. Easier, actually, since you have the option of cocking one hammer at a time,

Underlever rifles were made in two different patterns, the Jones action, which uses a rotating lever, and the Jeffery type Under Lever Snap Action, which uses a lever which is pushed forward from under the trigger guard. Both are quite strong, but the snap action is easier and quicker to use.

Here is what John Taylor had to say about hammer doubles in his book "African Rifles and Cartridges":

"I am very fond of the double hammer action because of the absolute silence in which it can be loaded and cocked. I know of more than one man, sitting up at night for man-eating tiger, who scared off his beast by the click of his safety as he prepared to shoot with a hammerless rifle. If you draw back the trigger at the same time as you draw back the hammer on a hammer rifle and then let the trigger go, you will have cocked without a sound of any sort. Then there is the delightful eas with which the breech opens; powerful double rifles are fitted with extra powerful main springs to obviate the possibility of a misfire; those springs have to be compressed as the breech of a hammerless action is opened and the locks cocked. There is nothing of that with the hammer rifle—you cock with your thumb, one lock at a time. I would happily finish the rest of my career with nothing but best grade double hammer rifles. Incidentally, such weapons can occasionally be picked up secondhand at very low prices—not becuse the hammer action is no good, but simply because fashion favors the hammerless. If you get such a chance, provided the weapon is in good condition, you need not hesitate—it will satisfactorily answer any questions you are ever likely to ask it."


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tinker
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: xausa]
      #222184 - 22/12/12 02:30 PM

If the locks are in proper shape, the way to go on game is with both hammers back.
One - Two, nothing quicker.

An additional advantage to the hammer rifle is that you can silently cock and decock the locks by thumbing the hammer while holding the trigger.





Cheers
Tinker

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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ozhunter
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: tinker]
      #222185 - 22/12/12 02:50 PM

"Hunting elephant with a hammergun?"
Sounds like a sterling idea...


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: xausa]
      #222186 - 22/12/12 02:52 PM

I like double rifles with hammers. They are safer to carry loaded with the hammers un-cocked than a hammerless double loaded with a safety on. Of course some modern doubles have an un-cocking "safety".

I started shooting with a 12 gauge and .410 gauge side by side shotguns with hammers. They are necessarily (edited) NOT slow at all. Assuming the rifle or shotgun can be shot with both hammers cocked. They do take a small amount of time longer to cock and get into action.

Assuming I decide my Westley Richards hammer 10-bore is powerful enough I would use it on elephant and will certainly try it out on buffalo.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Edited by NitroX (11/01/13 01:30 AM)


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StephenCoker
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: NitroX]
      #222216 - 23/12/12 04:54 AM

To simply answer the originally posted question: YES; PROCEED; DO IT!

I have a strong preference for hammers for most of the same reasons already stated in previous posts. They're incredibly well-balanced, offer some unique safety features, and are a joy to carry due to the roundness of their action (more so for back-action locks). Honestly, I'd be more concerned over the bolting mechanism and if you're comfortable with it for the purpose you intend to use it. Some people find the Jones underlever a bit slower than a side lever or top lever. Along those same lines you might consider rebounding v. non-rebounding locks. Non-rebounding locks require the additional step of placing the hammers at half-cock prior to unbolting the gun. I've practiced and timed myself with my shot timer just to satisfy my curiosity. I forget the numbers, there was a difference, but it was negligible. For me, the bottom line simply comes down to practice. You simply practice your motions until you get comfortable with whatever system you have in hand. This gives you the necessary level of confidence in any situation.

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eagle27
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: NitroX]
      #222233 - 23/12/12 08:33 AM

Quote:

I like double rifles with hammers. They are safer to carry loaded with the hammers un-cocked than a hammerless double loaded with a safety on. Of course some modern doubles have an un-cocking "safety".

I started shooting with a 12 gauge and .410 gauge side by side shotguns with hammers. They are necessarily slow at all. Assuming the rifle or shotgun can be shot with both hammers cocked. They do take a small amount of time longer to cock and get into action.

Assuming I decide my Westley Richards hammer 10-bore is powerful enough I would use it on elephant and will certainly try it out on buffalo.




Like you I started my shotgunning as a youngster with hammers guns, firstly a nice 28 gauge Belgium made side by side hammer with Damascus barrels and then graduating up to an old off the face, borer riddled stock 12 gauge hammer gun also with Damascus barrels. The real danger with the little 28 gauge was once the gun was closed and hammers cocked, you could not swing the top lever across enough to open the gun if you did not shoot, had to lower the RH hammer to open the gun. Heavy springs and wet and freezing hands for 10 year old when duck shooting made for some careful action. No thought about the Damascus barrels and smokeless powder.

So too do I like hammer guns with their safe carry uncocked.


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Even
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: eagle27]
      #223317 - 10/01/13 09:32 PM

There was a great article by Jack Lott in the 1985 Gun Digest called "Make Mine a Sidehammer Rifle". I recall him stating a preference for the older style when hunting Dangerous Game.

It stuck with me Now I just have to get richer, or find a cheap one!


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pondoro62
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Reged: 15/12/12
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: Even]
      #223364 - 11/01/13 06:06 AM

Jack lott had a sidehammer H&H in .577 NE, he huted buff with it in Zim..

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DarylS
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: pondoro62]
      #223367 - 11/01/13 06:35 AM

I remember seeing a picture of him with a buffalo and the side by side hammer .577 Nitro.
I've got that Gun Digest - seems to me, it had a red cover- I could easily be mistaken on that - 1976 comes to mind as well?

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Even
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: DarylS]
      #223382 - 11/01/13 10:22 AM

http://books.google.ca/books?id=lXYgo8FX...ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA

Google amazes me sometimes Perhaps a reprint, Daryl? Unsure.


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DarylS
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: Even]
      #223385 - 11/01/13 10:51 AM

Yup - that's it - only wrong by 9 years - HA! White cover - article on page 216.

On the cover- Cross sections, looks like a 12 bore Red Label Ruger, Ruger Mark II in .22 RF and Redhawk .44 - sitting in front of me right now.(the book)

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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pondoro62
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: DarylS]
      #223408 - 11/01/13 07:11 PM

There is an excellent article in Guns & Ammo 1984 annual page 82, where Jack Lott evaluate the .577 and .600 NE as stopping rifles..

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: Bonde]
      #223499 - 13/01/13 05:05 AM

I have double rifles, cape guns, and shotguns with exposed hammers, and I don’t find them to be slower for the second shot than a hammerless double, rifle shotgun or cape gun, and all of them are faster than a bolt rifle no matter how it is worked to reload the chamber for shot #2! I say go for it with the little 450/400NE 3 ¼ inch hammer double!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Bonde
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #224805 - 05/02/13 08:17 PM

Hammer Double bought!!

Will make a thread when I have the rifle in hand and take some pictures.

Thank you all for the input! The more I think of it, the more I realise it certainly is a sterling idea.

Now it's time to put aside money for a PAC/Tuskless.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill


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Longknife
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: Bonde]
      #226469 - 06/03/13 04:01 AM

Bonde, I never hunted elephant but hunted small game for many years with SXS percussion double shotguns and hammered SXS breech loading shotguns. I found it was very difficult, after firing the right barrel, to cock the left lock for a quick follow up shot. I would usually have to drop the gun from my shoulder to reach accross to the left lock, cock, and then remount and fire....My solution was to carry the gun with my right hand wrapped around the wrist with my thumb on the left hammer. when the game presented its self I cocked the left hammer as I raised the gun, then I fired the left barrel, and upon recoil I then cocked the right barrel. It became one fluid motion and I got pretty quick at it. It worked very well as I never got mauled by a wounded rabbit or a rampaging squirrel....Ed

Edited by Longknife (06/03/13 04:07 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: Longknife]
      #226501 - 06/03/13 01:19 PM

Using shotguns with hammers, I always used them, both hammers cocked when hunting.

I would try the same with double rifles with hammers. I would hope/expect the hammers to be reliable enough to not disengage when the other barrel is fired. I wonder why people think an external hammer is less reliable than an internal hammer when firing?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: NitroX]
      #226517 - 07/03/13 12:36 AM

I shoot hammer double rifles a lot. Always both hammers back.

If the second lock won't hold you have a problem that should be fixed.

Curl

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Hunting elephant with a hammergun? [Re: casper50]
      #227443 - 24/03/13 02:42 AM

Quote:

Bonde is it a BPE or nitro?




The 450/400 3 inch is automaticlly a NITRO rifle because the 3 inch 450/400 was never offered in black powder form. In fact that 3 inch version's brass is formed so it will not chamber in the older 3 1/4 inch rifle because the shoulder is farther forward on the 3 inch cartridge.

The biggest draw back with the rifle being discussed here is not the hammers but the choice of cartridge for hunting elephant. Though it will kill elephant it is considered a minimum caliber for that purpose. For just about any other of the dangerous game other than rhino and elephant is is one of the best, especially the cats. Hammers are not a problem.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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