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StephenCoker
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Reged: 01/12/11
Posts: 140
Loc: AR, United States of America
Long Range & Svelte???
      #221373 - 12/12/12 03:38 AM

Alright NitroExpress, I seek your input. I have need of a long-ish range rifle, but I want to maintain the classic and svelte lines, as well as the "carry-ability" of the iron-sighted vintage sporters I enjoy so much carrying afield. Let's set the parameters: First, I realize "long-ish range" is subjective. Let's set this at 400-450 for now. Its mission should be flexible, we might pursue coyotes or pronghorn. Maybe elk, but I prefer stalking them much, much closer! I'd like something scoped, but again, I like classic and svelte lines. Of the scoped magazine rifles, drillings, and stalking rifles I have, none are no more than 4x, and often no more than 2.5x. I wouldn't mind a bit more magnification, but don't want anything bulky. I'm okay with 4x if need be. The way a rifle feels is very important to me.

I picked up a Ross M-10 a few years back. It really, really wants to shoot with the irons sights and my handloads of Woodleighs of the proper .287" diameter. To get the most potential out of that rifle and cartridge combination I am considering scoping it. To me that rifle and its .280 Ross cartridge just scream both "long-ish" range and svelte lines in equal proportion.

So, what type of scope and mount are we thinking? A custom mount will most likely have to be made, and that is quite alright. What rifle/scope combinations do you prefer that fit the above mentioned perimeters?

--------------------
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Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

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DarylS
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #221377 - 12/12/12 04:02 AM

I was just talking to Ripp about the perfect rifle for that criteria - a 6.5/284 and you can include 400yard elk into that equation as well, given the proper bullet, of course. A 130gr. TTSX or MRX would probably do for all.

For a Ross - a 4X would work just fine. I do like my Fullfield 3-9 Burris, though, with the stadia wires - for either rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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VonGruff
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: DarylS]
      #221387 - 12/12/12 05:39 AM

You could always do something similar to what I did for my 7x57 as I too wanted to have the carryability of an iron sighted rifle with the usability of a scope sight for those longer shots.
I went with the bolt mounted aperture even though dictated, by necesity, a higher mounted sciope than ideal. I had a set of bases made that followed the Ruger idea of a longer rear ring height so that when the scope was off the rifle the bases would be as unobreusive as possible. Changed the ruger screws for a set of levers and have the desired result. Carry the rifle and use with aperture sights for into the 200yd range and have the 2-7 scope in a german styled leather bag over my shoulder out of the way but it is a simple and quick exercise to drop it on and change the ammo for a longer shot. I may not have mentioned that I have a 200-250 yd hunting load with 160gn soft nosed cast bullet at 2400fps for the aperture sighted shooting with the scope sighted for the 160gn Woodleigh PP at 2700fps. Fortunately they are both within an inch of elevation at 150yds so using wither ammo with both sights is exceptable for 200yd shots. Pic shows the trial scope in place and the reason I had the sight stem shortened by a mm or two for clearance under the scope, which was changed for a smaller 2-7 Leupold


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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John303
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: VonGruff]
      #221401 - 12/12/12 08:16 AM

In considering the classic look - I have a Ruger # 1 in .300 Wearherby with a Leupold for those "longer" shots at "larger" game - the biggest being moose. My smaller game long range rifle is a custom built Mauser in 6mm. Rem. both being 400 +/- yard guns, if need be, but of course the 6mm. gets a lot more use. Scopes off and then on never entered the equation in my "longer" range guns - to me these rifles are best - "set up and left alone", only in a very dire circumstance would I even consider doing that. Open sights, in my view, on this style of rifle are just a "spare tire" but that's just my point of view.

Lots of choices out there. JMHO - FWIW --- John

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bakposten
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: John303]
      #221403 - 12/12/12 08:28 AM

A Mauser 98 with a detachable scope, in 7*64 or 8*68s. I`m not sure which of those calibres I would choose though, I want them both. But with the 8*68s you will definitively have some extra punch on the longer shots on big game.

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Caprivi
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: bakposten]
      #221414 - 12/12/12 11:55 AM

Fella's I believe he stated having a M-10 in .280.................anyway

I like all the magnification I can get on a dedicated LR rifle. That said on a classic, especialy to "our" mutual likings, something trim may be in order. Thou it could be big and ponderous and ride in your Rucksak.

Or something in the middle like a nice 6x42 on claws.......

http://www.ebay.com/itm/German-rifle-sco...=item3a7c58b8ea

or a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/German-Carl-Zeis...=item3a7a752df9

or better yet, of utmost quality a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeiss-Diatal-C-6...=item27ccea11d2


I am very much a Optics snob. If it doesn't have a blue Z on it, I have little interest. This past summer I past on a very affordable BRNO in 8x57 because of a claw/rail mounted Henstolt

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

Edited by Caprivi (12/12/12 12:06 PM)

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bakposten
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Reged: 15/05/12
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Loc: Norway
Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #221425 - 12/12/12 06:46 PM

Ooops, missed that he already had a read gun. The fixed Zeiss 6*42 scope are great, but I would take a look at the Swarovski z3 3-9*36, small, light weight, 1" tube and great optics. And I saw it for sale on a US website for 450-500 dollars. That`s half the price of what we have to pay up here. Zeiss also has a 3-9*36 but I think it has went out of production, so then you will have to find a used one.

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StephenCoker
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Reged: 01/12/11
Posts: 140
Loc: AR, United States of America
Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: bakposten]
      #221449 - 13/12/12 02:57 AM

Thank you, gentlemen! This has all been very helpful. While I do have a rifle that I think meets the parameters I laid out, I was also curious about other's choices in rifles and optics that meet the same parameters of long range use and svelte lines. I find all of your contributions valuable. Please keep them coming!

Caprivi, you may have just cost me some money as I'm eyeing that Zeiss 6x very closely!

Bakposten, I have a tremendous amount of respect for both the 7x64 and the 8x68s, as I have a liking for non-belted magnums. I have much experience with many European calibers and have reloaded for the 7x64 in the past. I was very pleased. I don't have any experience with the 8x68s, though it looks very impressive for the heavy end of my needs. My American reloading manauals offer little for the 8x68s. By chance, do you have any experience with the 6.5x68s? A Voere in 6.5x68s has recently grabbed my attention.

The Swarovski Z3 and Zeiss in 3-9 would both be good candidates. While my Ross has fairly svelte lines, it is a very large action. I think I may be able to get away with a larger optic than I originally anticipated and still keep the handling characteristics I want.

--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

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Caprivi
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #221457 - 13/12/12 07:17 AM

Quote:

Caprivi, you may have just cost me some money as I'm eyeing that Zeiss 6x very closely!



You are welcome.....I think :):)

I would personal put a 4.5-14x50mm Conquest on it. Laser it, turn the knob, drop the hammer....at most any range. But then that is my standard answer on most all LR set ups.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

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bakposten
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Reged: 15/05/12
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Loc: Norway
Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #221459 - 13/12/12 08:45 AM

I have no experience with 6,5*68, the only thing I know is that you should never use 8*68s brass for this calibre. The dimensions are not the same, if you have seen pictures or hear about the Blaser r93 that blew up here in Norway, it blew up partly because he used brass from the 8*68 for the 6,5*68 and a bit to much powder of course.

The Voere sounds interesting, 6,5*68 must be a great long range calibre, Good bc on 6,5mm bullets and good speed are always a good combo.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #221460 - 13/12/12 09:20 AM

Quote:

I am very much a Optics snob. If it doesn't have a blue Z on it, I have little interest. This past summer I past on a very affordable BRNO in 8x57 because of a claw/rail mounted Henstolt


Caprivi, you made a mistake! In 1852 Moritz Hensoldt founded his optical company in Wetzlar, western Germany. He pioneered the making of slim binoculars and rifle scopes. By 1928 the Hensoldt company was a subsidiary of Carl Zeiss, Jena. After 1945 Jena was in the east, the GDR, but the company with the Zeiss name fled to the west. The now "people owned" Zeiss factory in Jena continued to make scopes and used the Zeiss name in the east, but could not sell them under this name in the west. The now western Zeiss company had the name and still owned the Hensoldt factory. Until the late 1960s they sold the scopes made in Wetzlar under the Hensoldt name, then the changed the name of the same scopes to Zeiss. "Diasta", "Diatal" and "Diavari" scopes may be found marked "Hensoldt" or "Zeiss", there is absolutely no difference! Today's "Zeiss" scopes are actually "Hensoldts", made at the Hensoldt factory by Hensoldt people and developed from Hensoldt designs.

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Ripp
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #221463 - 13/12/12 10:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Caprivi, you may have just cost me some money as I'm eyeing that Zeiss 6x very closely!



I would personal put a 4.5-14x50mm Conquest on it. Laser it, turn the knob, drop the hammer....at most any range. But then that is my standard answer on most all LR set ups.



I have several of the conquest 4.5-14 Rapid Z 800's...they work really well when I have used them in the past 3 years or so..one of my issues is I really dont think they have that great of clarity..at least not compared to the Swarovski or S/B..IMHO...

The scopes I have used on my lightweight rifles were 3.5-10's which offer plenty of magnification out to 400 yards..but as mentioned earlier personally when I know I more likely than not will be making shots in the 300 yd plus range--I believe in more is better to a certain extent..about 80% of my scopes are in the range suggested by Caprivi--4.5-14..think that is the perfect combo for hunting here in the West

As for long range calibers--in the past few years I have used the .264 W Mag, 280 AI, and 257 Weatherby and 300 Ultra-mag..on deer, elk, antelope, bear and big horn sheep...they have all worked really well..but if I was to currently settle on one right now..as Daryl suggested, think I would settle on the 6.5/284 or any one of the other 6.5's offered..withe some of the new bullets offered , the BC is through the roof...even the littel 6.5 Grendel is impressive...

One thing I will mention..there is a VERY dramatic difference when shooting an elk at long range with a 300 Ultra versus several of the other calibers I mentioned..but then again, dead is dead..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: kuduae]
      #221481 - 13/12/12 12:36 PM

Quote:

Caprivi, you made a mistake!



That well may by, surely not my first, fairly far from my last.
I do indeed know there history, I have used a few of there pre-during-post War production models and none o them would hold zero to my standard. Also while there glass was far superior to anything of comparable time frame produced by a US manufactor (excluding the Lyman Challenger 4x) I will still take a newly made Zeiss Conquest or a older Diavari. For that just so classic look I will probably bend some and use a Zielvier Jena............:):):)

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: Ripp]
      #221490 - 13/12/12 02:54 PM

Quote:

The scopes I have used on my lightweight rifles were 3.5-10's which offer plenty of magnification out to 400 yards..but as mentioned earlier personally when I know I more likely than not will be making shots in the 300 yd plus range--I believe in more is better to a certain extent..about 80% of my scopes are in the range suggested by Caprivi--4.5-14..think that is the perfect combo for hunting here in the West ..............

Ripp




I tend to agree Ripp. Actual shooting/hunting distances can indeed be quite close, but really only in the Black or on that chance stalk in close. Most will be from 200 to wherever your skill level reaches. My wife is not a long range hunter and the 3x9 on her .240 is just fine, Her matching .223 wheres the same. My older daughter is a finished shoot and 1000 is no different than 40... That said when there is meat under the crosshairs she is very conservative. 500 is probably the end of the line for her. Her little 6.5x284 wheres a 3.5-10x44 Conquest with a elevation knob. I have Pronghorn this year at 903 and 686. My rather ponderous 6.5 wheres my favored 4.5-14x50 Conquest with knobs. On a former 30/378 it stopped a wounded MD at 1080, harvested a Pronghorn at 722, finished another (gut shot by a hunter) at 992. On a former 7mmWBY , with knob topped out (55moa of correction) I had 2 shots...Bang, Bang ... then Clang, Clang ... on a gong at 1760. That rifle shot a one-time 4" group at 1mile with this scope.

Yes I am a bit of a fan of it.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

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Caprivi
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #223397 - 11/01/13 03:17 PM

Any updates ???

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

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StephenCoker
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #223467 - 12/01/13 02:44 PM

I haven't made up my mind just yet, but I think I like the idea of a vintage scope on it of some type. Too many projects at the moment I suppose. It will happen though.

--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

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kamilaroi
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #223480 - 12/01/13 08:51 PM

I choose between a mid 60's Nickel am Marburg 6x42 or a modern Zeiss Diatal 6x 42T.

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StephenCoker
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Reged: 01/12/11
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: kamilaroi]
      #223500 - 13/01/13 05:07 AM

Both would certainly be good choices and meet the parameters I laid out in my original post. I think a fixed 6x would be ideal for this project. Thanks for sharing.

--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

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szihn
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #223506 - 13/01/13 07:16 AM

To me, a light weight rifle on an M-98 Mauser in 270 Winchester would cover the bill better than most.

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m4220
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: szihn]
      #223507 - 13/01/13 07:46 AM

Stephen,
If you do decide on the 6.5 x68 or 8x68S I have a bit of RWS ammo squireled away but could probally be coaxed into selling a few boxes :^)

m4220

Edited by m4220 (13/01/13 07:52 AM)

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tophet1
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: m4220]
      #223511 - 13/01/13 09:03 AM

Coyotes at 400 yards. I assume they would be the same size as a small Kangaroo or large fox ?

Go a custom mount.

Any quality 'older' Euro scope would do on that Ross. A good Pecar being almost equal to a Zeiss or Hensoldt and a lot more economical to purchase.

I would submit reticle choice and thickness will have a larger impact on long range effectiveness at the lower magnifications mentioned. I have had to practise with some reticles using the top of the horizontal cross hair as the aiming point. If the vertical portion of the reticle is too thick, kiss it all godbye.

A reticle with a pointed or vertical bar may suit you better. Even a flat topped bar that subtends 2 Moa at 100 yards can work well at distance if you practise hoilding off L or R. An added bonus is a less obstructed sight picture.

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Caprivi
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Re: Long Range & Svelte??? [Re: tophet1]
      #224310 - 26/01/13 06:42 AM

....an understudy Syephen ???

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=327139856

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

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