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buckstix
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Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached.
      #221366 - 12/12/12 02:43 AM

Hello all,

I'm soon going to remove the stock on my Daniel Fraser Double rifle to have the triggers adjusted. Can anyone tell me if the stocks on Fraser Doubles are attached with a "draw-bolt" system? I found a reference on the internet that said,

"....An engraved screw holds checkered central cover giving access to stock bolt. (all Fraser boxlock guns and single shot rifles are through bolted).... "

I really can't look at my Fraser Owner's Manual to check this, so I'm wondering if any Fraser Double Rifle owners have any experience with stock removal.

I'll patiently await your reply.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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StephenCoker
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: buckstix]
      #221368 - 12/12/12 03:02 AM

This should be the way your Fraser is set up, but keep in mind that there are no absolutes.

1. You'll have to pull the hand-pin as it goes through the through-bolt.
2. Remove the buttplate/recoil pad to gain access to the through-bolt.
3. Remove throughbolt.
4. Carefully, slide the stock off.

I don't recall there is a breech pin to remove on Fraser's. Also to note, that the single shots are a bit different. On those you have to remove the safety if it is of the later design with the safety on the top strap rather than the earlier version with the safety in the trigger guard.

--------------------
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buckstix
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: StephenCoker]
      #221381 - 12/12/12 04:25 AM

Hello StephenCoker,

Thank you so much for your reply. I assume by your answer that Fraser Double Rifles do have a "Through-bolt" system.

I would have a few questions,

1. What is the "hand pin"? Is this the screw under the triggerguard that comes up from the bottom and goes into the end of the top tang? Or is it something else?

2. Are the through bolts typically centered in the stock, between the recoil pad attaching screws?

3. How far from the butt end of the stock (beneath the recoil pad) is the end of the through bolt? Is it near the end, or far into the stock?

4. Does the through bolt have a turn-screw slot to loosen and tighten it, or a square head?

Here are the reasons for all my questions. The stock on my rifle with its Red rubber recoil pad looks like it has never been removed, or at least not in the last 75 years. Hence, the recoil pad with its 2 matching rubber plugs over the two attaching screws, has taken on a smooth polished vintage surface wherein the plugs are barely visible without a magnifing glass. Also, the joint of the pad to the wood has a similarly "aged" polished junction that would be difficult to rejoin.

I hate to disturb these wonderful features just to adjust the triggers. I'm considering living with the 8 & 9 pound triggers rather than disturbing the recoil pad. Or, perhaps adding a small center hole through the pad to acess the through-bolt, and then plugging that hole with something that is removeable.

I'd appreciate your answers and thoughts.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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StephenCoker
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: buckstix]
      #221398 - 12/12/12 07:49 AM

You're welcome. I've tried to answer your questions in turn below:

I assume by your answer that Fraser Double Rifles do have a "Through-bolt" system.
A: Given the pictures I've seen of your rifle, I would "assume" yes, but I've certainly seen much stranger things in the realm of vintage gun.

1. What is the "hand pin"? Is this the screw under the trigger guard that comes up from the bottom and goes into the end of the top tang? Or is it something else?
A: Yes

2. Are the through bolts typically centered in the stock, between the recoil pad attaching screws?
A: Not necessarily. However, this is Fraser and it would not surprise me in the least if the thing was! The reason being, is that with a such a svelte stock you are dealing with many curves, slopes, transitions, casts, and multiple planes - no less intriguing than the lovely legs that grace certain members of the opposite sex!

3. How far from the butt end of the stock (beneath the recoil pad) is the end of the through bolt? Is it near the end, or far into the stock?
A: It all depends on the stock's length of pull. I think I recall it being somewhere around 6"-8" from the butt of the stock. Roughly halfway through the stock.

4. Does the through bolt have a turn-screw slot to loosen and tighten it, or a square head?
A: I recall it having a slotted-head screw

I've checked my Fraser picture portfolio and don't have a picture of the internals of his boxlock. This shall soon be remedied! I believe nitroexpress member MikeRowe has a photo. Maybe we can get him to graciously share? He shares my clinical infatuation with Scottish makers.

A few additional thoughts:
I certainly applaud your curiousness and interest in digging in to it. Many would tell you to abandon it. As long as you can properly wield a turn screw and a few other tools, and do no harm, then I say go for it. As for the triggers, I'd leave them as is (and I'm capable of making the adjustments ), but that is just me. The aging you mention is a bit of a challenge, and it's good that you noticed it. With the right skill, some eye of newt, and hair of bat they can sometimes be aged back evenly, providing no proof that someone has been into it. I've accomplished it before, but I certainly wouldn't guarantee I could repeat my success. When I restore guns I do not wish for them to look new, even when I put on a new finish! Having said that, there are other options. I once saw a Mannlicher Schoenhauer fitted with a Silvers pad that had a graceful ellipse cut out of the central portion of the pad. This cutout provided access to the Mannlicher hinged plate. Opening the hinge provided access to the segmented cleaning rod and oiler - very clever! It is possible that this could be done in similar fashion to provide access to the through-bolt of your Fraser, though I'd encourage it be done with the utmost care to stay stringent to the graceful lines and workmanship that Fraser is so well known for.

--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

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buckstix
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: StephenCoker]
      #221402 - 12/12/12 08:26 AM

Hello StephenCoker,

I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate the help.

Although I consider myself a very knowledgeable hobby gunsmith, and have done things that even today I can't believe I accomplished, I have messed up enough things in the past that now I have become super conservative. In days of old, when my toys were not near so expensive, I learned through trial and error. Now, that method is no longer acceptable. My toys are too dear and have history that needs protecting.

This is my first Double rifle, and I've learned in short order that I'm doubly lucky that it is a Fraser. I really like it and have hunted with it for 4 days here in Wisconsin a special 4-day deer season. Not successfully however.

I may well leave the triggers "as is" and just get used to a heavy pull. I can control my squeeze but it takes quite an effort to be consistent when working up loads.

Getting back to the through bolt. Even if I don't need to access the bolt for a trigger job, I found the following: When I checked the tightness of the "hand pin" I noticed a little looseness. I was able to turn a "full turn" to make it tight again. Based on the geometry of the stock and the action and the upper and lower tangs, I assume this tightening "pulled" the stock tighter against the action. But, given that looseness, I would think there might also be some slack in the through bolt since this rifle is likely over 100 years old and wood seems to shrink with age.

This would be another reason to want to access the through bolt; to tighten it. I've made arrangement with a veterinarian friend to have the stock x-rayed in a week or so. Hopefully this will show the depth and location of the bolt. And a drawing would sure be nice.
I'm hoping a well placed "small hole" will allow ingress of a screwdriver to tighten the bolt, and then make a small decorative "removable" plug to fill the hole.

Any suggestions? Does this sound logical to you?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Claydog
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: buckstix]
      #221419 - 12/12/12 02:02 PM

Stephen
I think maybe clinical infatuation could be understating the situation. But I find your enthusiasm infectious.

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StephenCoker
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: Claydog]
      #221451 - 13/12/12 03:20 AM

Buckstix,
Your approach sounds logical.

Claydog,
I've checked about rehab for this affliction, but there is no cure. The following eases the pain a bit:
1. Buy Scottish guns and/or make ones that damn-well duplicate their quality and their lines.
2. Use above in the field regularly as symptoms persist.
3. Symptoms can be eased when no. 1 and 2 are combined with good friends who share in the affliction, good gun dogs, a harvested deer or a brace of birds, a bench full of files and piles of metal and wood shavings on the floor, a wee dram of Macallen or a pint of Milk Stout!



--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

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buckstix
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: StephenCoker]
      #221455 - 13/12/12 05:53 AM

Now those are some words of wisdom!

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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MikeRowe
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: buckstix]
      #221486 - 13/12/12 01:53 PM

Buckstix

It would be good idea to make sure the stock on your Fraser is nice and snug before doing too much shooting. Things have a habit of going downhill at an exponential rate otherwise - the action joint is the worst in that respect, and should be attended too in the proper manner at the first hint of looseness.

The recoil pad plugs can be removed with a thin scribe or dental pick with a small hook on the end. Put a little vaseline on it and carefully work it in around the plug and down in there and it should be able to be hooked out.

Take the hand pin out (I'm pretty sure it goes through a hole in the stock draw bolt), and then you should be able to turn the draw bolt out. If there's any hint of a problem turning it, check to find the cause before proceeding. I don't know if you'll need a turnscrew blade or a spanner wrench. Shine a Maglite down in there - I love taking buttplates off, you never know what you're going to find!

The stock can be snugged with the draw bolt by using a washer under the head. You'll have to experiment with the thickness to get the stock tight, and also have the hand pin hole line up.

The safety goes through a slot in the front of the draw bolt hanger between the top strap and the trigger plate, at least from the examples I've seen.

I'll have a look around for a picture.

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buckstix
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: MikeRowe]
      #221524 - 13/12/12 10:24 PM

Thank you MikeRowe,

I truly appreciate the help. Yes, please post or email a picture. I want to approach this cautiously as to not make any irreversible mistakes. As stated above, I'm very reluctant to touch the "aged" rubber recoil pad for fear of it cracking, chipping, or otherwise being damaged.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: buckstix]
      #222031 - 20/12/12 02:34 PM

Hello all,

I took my Daniel Fraser stock to the Doctor.



And ... my friend Dr. Mike did his magic with his x-ray machine and look what we found. A through bolt. And not anywhere near centered. I haven't done all the math yet, but it looks as though the access hole in the stock is going to intersect the lower butt plate screw plug in the rubber recoil pad. I couldn't have picked a worse place for it to be.

My question now is, does the tang screw go through a hole in the draw bolt, or is it a slot so the draw bolt can be tightened in 1/2 turn increments?




The small pins in this close-up x-ray below are spaced at 1" apart to get measurements for a detailed drawing.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (20/12/12 10:31 PM)

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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: buckstix]
      #222032 - 20/12/12 02:39 PM

Yep, that's how I remember it.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: MikeRowe]
      #222058 - 20/12/12 10:36 PM

Buck,

One can see that is not the original pad. There are wood plug repairs in the stock where the buttplate screws go in.



For what it's worth, replacement of the pad will not affect the originality of your rifle.

The existing pad was quite well done, as you have observed. A replacement, if necessary, can be equally well done.

Curl

P.S. Beware that the pad may be glued onto the stock in addition to the screw attachment.

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (20/12/12 10:37 PM)

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buckstix
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: CptCurl]
      #222059 - 20/12/12 11:00 PM

Quote:

"One can see that is not the original pad. There are wood plug repairs in the stock where the buttplate screws go in."
.




Hello CaptCurl,

Yes, and if you look closely you can see "another" wood screw hole, just below the toe screw into the wood plug. That means this is at least the "third" butt-pad (plate) on this rifle.

Quote:

"For what it's worth, replacement of the pad will not affect the originality of your rifle."


Yes, I know. But I sure like the looks of this pad.

Quote:

"P.S. Beware that the pad may be glued onto the stock in addition to the screw attachment."


Well, this just keeps getting better, doesn't it!

I've thought about drilling a small 1/4" hole above the toe plug in order to access the through-bolt. That way I would preserve the existing plugs, and add a smaller "new plug".

I would still like to know if the clearance hole through the draw bolt, for the tang screw, is a "hole" or a "slot". If it was a slot, I could check / tighten the stock in 1/2 turn increments through the new 1/4" access-hole that I drilled through the existing pad, without having to removing the pad. However, if its a hole and not a slot (through the draw-bolt) then the entire draw-bolt would have to be removed, and the stock tightness adjusted (if necessary) using washers under the head.

Anyone know the answer?

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AkMike
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: buckstix]
      #222060 - 20/12/12 11:15 PM

If all else fails a different xray angled just a touch off from verticle, (avoiding the top strap) should show something. But I bet Mr. Rowe or some of the others will know for sure.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: AkMike]
      #222061 - 20/12/12 11:50 PM

I would expect the hand pin to pass through a hole in the through bolt.

I would sacrifice the entire pad before drilling a 1/4" hole. That's going to look like crap, and it's not enough hole for the screw driver.

Is your stock loose? I thought this was all about access to the action internals for trigger adjustment.

Didn't notice the other screw hole at the toe which you mentioned. Yeah, it's had a few pad replacements. Not unusual. I did see the plugged hole just behind the sling swivel. But I seem to recall seeing it from the exterior photos you initially posted. This rifle has seen a lot of activity.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: CptCurl]
      #222063 - 20/12/12 11:54 PM

You can determine if it's glued by trying to pull it back on one side to see if it separates from the wood.

If it's glued you won't be able to salvage it, which you probably won't be able to do anyway.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: CptCurl]
      #222064 - 20/12/12 11:55 PM

I would be inclined to suck-up the triggers. They probably aren't so bad anyway. Doubles don't have match triggers.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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buckstix
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: CptCurl]
      #222065 - 21/12/12 12:11 AM

Hello CptCurl,

Stock is not loose right now, but I wouldn't mind checking the through bolt tightness. Wood likely shrinks over these many years.

Quote:

"I would be inclined to suck-up the triggers. They probably aren't so bad anyway. Doubles don't have match triggers."



Yes, definitely! I'm actually getting more and more used to the heavy triggers with each outing. They are heavy but smooth, and most importantly, they are predictable. It was only at the insistence of improving the triggers for re-regulating that this entire issue arose. So far, all those that I asked about Fraser's and through-bolts, have said they didn't think they had through bolts.

I'm the type that wants to know "all" the information so as to make an informed decision before proceeding on any project to one of my rifles. I guess its my Engineering background that doesn't like surprises.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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MikeRowe
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: buckstix]
      #222072 - 21/12/12 04:03 AM

The plug going into the bottom of the stock at right angles to the lower recoil pad screw is filling the hole where the original Fraser sling eye was placed. They are a normal eye, but set almost flush with the toe line of the stock.

If you want to tighten the through bolt, the pad will have to come off so the bolt can be taken out. A different thickness washer will have to be used under the head so the hole for the hand pin will line up. If the stock or bolt is even the slightest bit loose, it needs to be done.

You may as well do the triggers then.

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buckstix
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: MikeRowe]
      #222084 - 21/12/12 10:38 AM

Hello MikeRowe,
Hello StephenCoker,

Well, since we were in the midst of a Blizzard with 14+ inches of snow and 50 MPH wind gusts, I had time to do a lot of thinking.

And, since you guys kind-of talked me into it .... here is how it went.

I used a greased "seam splitter" sewing tool to carefully "circle" the recoil pad plugs. Would you believe they were "glued" in. Fortunately the old glue was brittle, and flaked away as I circled each plug. I was so careful I almost passed out "twice" from holding my breath. Luckily the pad was not glued on, and came right off.



I could feel a little wiggle in the draw bolt, and could tighten it 1/2 turn. I removed it, measured the threads, .040 each, and placed a .020 copper washer under the head and re-installed it. While I was in the works, which were all 24K Gold plated by the way, I used a high pressure grease on the pressure points of the trigger parts.


After all was re-assembled, it looked like I had never been inside. This undertaking went 100% perfect! With the sears slicked up, the trigger pulls are now a very smooth 6 & 7 pounds.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (21/12/12 10:58 PM)

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MikeRowe
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: buckstix]
      #222093 - 21/12/12 12:40 PM

I'm glad everything went smoothly for you. The Fraser looks very nice inside.


It is good you were able to tighten the draw bolt, little things like that are very important to the longevity of the gun, as is lubrication.

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StephenCoker
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: MikeRowe]
      #222250 - 23/12/12 02:58 PM

Very well done! Looks like it's bit late to post the photo Mike and I found. LOL!

--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

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buckstix
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Re: Daniel Fraser Stock removal - How is it attached. [Re: StephenCoker]
      #222264 - 23/12/12 08:46 PM

Hello StephenCoker,

No, by all means please post it. It may help someone else with the same project.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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