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Caprivi
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8x51 ???
      #220262 - 26/11/12 09:51 AM

Rough but cheap and interesting

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=318588702

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lancaster
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220281 - 26/11/12 06:01 PM

yes it is














looks like a teutonic made sporter
the 8x51 is an rare and interesting round beating the 7,62x51 for some years. maybe its wrong and the rifle is actually chambered for the 8x54 swedish.

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Edited by CptCurl (02/12/12 03:03 AM)


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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: lancaster]
      #220310 - 27/11/12 01:59 AM

???? Just may need to bid on it.
I was thinking 54 or 57mm case myself........the obscure 51mm in a "Swede" would be odd for sure.
I was liking it for the the action as well as the lines of the stock. May be useable to make into a pattern.

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Igorrock
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220329 - 27/11/12 06:31 AM

Lancaster, could it be this ?

http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/122981

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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Igorrock]
      #220387 - 28/11/12 02:11 AM

I may have made a deal on it. Will be worth it for the action alone to me I think.

Seller says a cast was made and a few fired rounds, so ??? I will try to get those as well if the deal happens.


...............so aside from a trim and handy rifle of more than adequate hunting performance, what does a simplistic, excessive compulsive pragmatism such as myself, do with such a rifle ???
While the plains of Wyoming are not conducive to a iron sighted light medium, I would think any future hunts east or south for hogs or deer in the riverine would be rather entertaining with a rifle such as this. Besides this purchase would still allow a "need" for a scope 6.5 or such to procure later

........I have had a bit of a rekindling of the "Fraser" bug of late and found this while looking at/for pre-98 mauser actions. The thinking was that I would re-create a "Fraser" of my own, not having the means, nor would I spend that, had I the means to procure a proper Daniel Fraser bolt action. Conversation leads me to me to think it is a bit nicer in hand than the photographer has captured. The simple childish joy of some new oiled wood and engraving "8x51mm" at the chamber is not lost on me.

Now all of this dwaddle said, would you pursue this or contact someplace like Simpsons LTD and merely pick up a useable mdl 46 for not much more ?????

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lancaster
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Igorrock]
      #220404 - 28/11/12 06:34 AM

Quote:

Lancaster, could it be this ?

http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/122981




yes, if 8x51 it must be the mauser kurz. one of the special cartridges made for the famous kurz action.

the cartridge is very rare and I never had such a rifle in my hands before. thinking brass can be made by 308 Win brass simply necking it up.

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lancaster
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220405 - 28/11/12 06:38 AM

Quote:

I may have made a deal on it. Will be worth it for the action alone to me I think.

Seller says a cast was made and a few fired rounds, so ??? I will try to get those as well if the deal happens.


...............so aside from a trim and handy rifle of more than adequate hunting performance, what does a simplistic, excessive compulsive pragmatism such as myself, do with such a rifle ???
While the plains of Wyoming are not conducive to a iron sighted light medium, I would think any future hunts east or south for hogs or deer in the riverine would be rather entertaining with a rifle such as this. Besides this purchase would still allow a "need" for a scope 6.5 or such to procure later

........I have had a bit of a rekindling of the "Fraser" bug of late and found this while looking at/for pre-98 mauser actions. The thinking was that I would re-create a "Fraser" of my own, not having the means, nor would I spend that, had I the means to procure a proper Daniel Fraser bolt action. Conversation leads me to me to think it is a bit nicer in hand than the photographer has captured. The simple childish joy of some new oiled wood and engraving "8x51mm" at the chamber is not lost on me.

Now all of this dwaddle said, would you pursue this or contact someplace like Simpsons LTD and merely pick up a useable mdl 46 for not much more ?????




if you have the money and the place to store buy it

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Huvius
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: lancaster]
      #220417 - 28/11/12 09:52 AM

Well, I just did a Yahoo image search for a "Swedish Model 46" and I damn near forgot all about Mausers!!

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DarylS
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Huvius]
      #220418 - 28/11/12 09:57 AM



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StephenCoker
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: DarylS]
      #220420 - 28/11/12 10:19 AM

LOL Huvius, I bet you did!

Attempting to get back to Mausers....

Either way it sounds like you have a good foundation! As to the 46s, their quality is outstanding. That goes for Mauser's and the variety alluded to by Huvius! Having used both Husqvarna and Carl Gustav 96 actions (sporting and military models) for projects they're just simply outstanding to work with. I do have several 46s and 146s that haven't been touched and I'll keep them that way.

Fraser typically used the 93 action with minimal differences such as the flat-bottomed bolt face, and some changes to the gas escape, and the cocking piece. Let me know when you want to get started! And don't worry about the practicality of such a rifle in America's Serengeti. We can do Fraser mounts. They look quite nice when paired with an appropriate vintage scope. Speaking of Fraser projects, I'll be shaping up a trigger guard and bottom metal tonight in the Fraser style. I'll post pics.

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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #220428 - 28/11/12 03:06 PM

Igorrock, Thanks, good info.

Lancaster, I do, Ido and I did. Sent the funds today.

Huvius, being a bit of a Prude, I didn't dare to Google it :):)

Stephen, Agree with first paragraph. Thanks for 2nd para.

I have wondered on what actual action version Fraser would have used. I had thought all 93's have the flat bottom bolt face. As for the "get started", being a bit of a 6.5 junkie as well as a Fraser junkie, I am thinking the Serengeti would be better served with a "Coker/Fraser-izied" 6.5x55...... Or a 7.65arg, or a 7x57, or a .303, or something really obsure like a .242 or a .240apex..............

I am assuming this 8x51 will be a ".318" Obviously I will slug, cast, measure everything. I guess there will be dies to make, brass to form (yes, I believe the .308 will work) make a swage.......Looks like the new workshop will get a new project

I see there where factory loads in 157gr thru 196gr. I am thinking something like a 200-ish projectile with 35-ish Varget for 2000-ish. The cool factor of a 170 32spec Flat Nose notwithstanding

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StephenCoker
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220429 - 28/11/12 03:26 PM

I've got a 6.5x55 barrel that's been turned to match the profile from an original Fraser magazine rifle on the bench presently. It's for a take down, so about to get stared on fitting the Fraser thumbscrew and the bite for the Deeley latch. I like your thoughts on the ballistics of your new toy - quite practical.

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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #220430 - 28/11/12 03:33 PM

All sounds cool. Please start a thread on this Coker/Fraser project. We have "heard" bits and pieces of this 6.5 TD, put it all together in one place for us.....:):):)

Thanks, I do tend to be a bit practical............

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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220431 - 28/11/12 03:44 PM

Huvius, try this.......

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info_2...6055064a137dd5a

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eagle27
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220433 - 28/11/12 04:18 PM

I have loaded ammunition for an 8x51 many years ago. The owner of the Mannlicher rifle had dies and it was a simple matter to run 308Win cases in the FL die and load up. I cannot recall the bullet weight or powder I used and have not kept the records when transferring my data to excel database but I do know the projectiles were Norma .318" diameter which I was using for reloading in the 32 Remington I had at the time. I don't think they were as heavy as 196gr so were possibly around 150gr.

The load I developed was accurate and the rifles owner killed quite a few red deer with it. Because of the possibility of the 308Win headstamped ammo being confused with 308W or vice versa I applied a colour to the primers and a warning on the ammo boxes.


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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: eagle27]
      #220471 - 29/11/12 02:24 AM

Thanks for the input eagle27. Indeed a 150gr would be sufficent, but a 196 sounds so cool.
It may re-new my cast bullet habit as well. I have/had a wonderful old Lyman mould with a HP plug in about 215gr sized and GC. In searching for info, I have notice many references to this chambering in MS. More so than referring to it being used in a MauserKurz.

After it arrives I will make to cast and measure. Have not checked, but wondering if I ca make a die off of a 57mm reamer........

I will have to look but I think I have some 308 or 358 without any head stamp on them......

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DarylS
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #220477 - 29/11/12 02:36 AM

57mm reamer will have too small a shoulder, if the 8x51 is actually close in shoulder to the .308 (.454"). The .454" is typical for an Ackley Improved standard case.

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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: DarylS]
      #222189 - 22/12/12 03:40 PM

It has finally arrived today.....very long story of a difficult seller. Well most of it arrived. No bolt, forgot to ship it ??? and according to USPS data it should arrive on Monday.

Anyway, first glance, I like it. Bore looks good enough, overall condition is good enough.....
Second first glance, the "cast" supplied is wax, not so very conducive to best measuring so it will get some cerasafe. Looking over these supplied casts and spent cases, I can say that I think it is a .318" groove and I can say that I think it is NOT a 8x51mm. It is not a 8x57 either. The cast shows a case longer than a 51mm, the fired case reveals this as well, but is shorter than a 8x57. Future tests will tell, but am suspecting a 8x54. If so that will call for a 6.5x55 donor case as opposed to a .308 size

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Edited by Caprivi (23/12/12 05:16 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Caprivi]
      #222196 - 22/12/12 05:57 PM

8x54 Krag was quite common caliber in sweden.



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lancaster
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: Igorrock]
      #222197 - 22/12/12 11:43 PM

make sense in swedish mauser sporter, more than the 8x51 kurz

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DarylS
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Re: 8x51 ??? [Re: lancaster]
      #222208 - 23/12/12 03:14 AM

Yes - iirc Tradeex sells 8x54's in Swedish Mausers.

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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: DarylS]
      #222253 - 23/12/12 03:38 PM

As would be normal with this purchase. The bolt is in town, but USPS didn't deliver it today. Maybe monday.
Anyway, it got disassembled, scrubbed, bore foamed, bore slugged (it is a .323" bore) chamber cast (all measurements say 8x54mm Krag Jorgensen).
I dummy-ied up some cases (R-P 6.5x55) with assorted dies I had. I will load them and fire form for a better chamber image.

In another thread Daryl S eluded to gathering odd dies for future projects.....very sound advise, wish I heeded it more.

I have a LEE 8x57 sizing die coming that I will shorten and lap out to clear the the fatter 55mm case. I like the tapered expander of the LEE dies. I will anneal a few cases and try expanding them, maybe they will be a bit prettier.

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Edited by Caprivi (23/12/12 03:39 PM)


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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Caprivi]
      #222254 - 23/12/12 03:57 PM

In researching this, I found from GOOGLE where the seller, bought it on AuctionArms. I then found where that seller bought it thru Simpson LTD. They listed it as a 8x51. They have sold many 8x54's and 57's, maybe a typo ???

As a 8x51mm it was intriging, as a 8x54mm a bit less so ??? Why is this ??? Turns out to be common ??? Too close to the 8x57's ??? I really like the stock profile, the action is fine, just feels nice, been awhile since I had a iron sighted rifle to practice with........


In looking this over, some observations. The stock is a fine fiddleback walnut cut down military stock. The rounded grip pistol grip is a obvious add on, cleaning rod hole filled, small filler pieces added in barrel channel where military rear sight was. I suspect that the original military 6.5 barrel was re-bored to 8mm, then the chamber cut. The existing brass would easily be made into 8x54 on production machinery.

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DarylS
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Caprivi]
      #222278 - 24/12/12 03:07 AM

Does the 8x54 have the same base and shoulder measurements as a 6.5x55? If so, would it not be easier to open up the neck area of 6.5x55 dies for the 8x54 Krag chambering? Once the dies are annealed, chucking reamers would probably work, or simple 8x57 chambering reamer for the bullet seating die and rougher for the sizer die - if such reamers are still available for rent in the US?

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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: DarylS]
      #222285 - 24/12/12 07:30 AM

Daryl, the 8x54 and the 6.5x55 have the same base diameter and shoulder location and diameter. The neck is longer on the 8, but am guessing that necking up the 6.5 will lengthen it.

Duh' should have thought that way......Yes, opening a 6.5 die would be the smarter way to go. If I stay with the cheaper LEE die, I can swap out to there tapered 8mm expander.....Thanks for that.

If I need to, do you have a recommendation on annealing the die ???

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Edited by Caprivi (24/12/12 11:29 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Caprivi]
      #222287 - 24/12/12 10:18 AM

Pleasure - the important thing is to have fun.

The 8x54 should be within 1 gr. capacity as the 8x57. This is why the 6.5x55 was developed. The Swedes wanted a 6.5mm round that would easily fit in their shorter action, but that had the same capacity as the 7x57. Thus, they made the base larger to gain back the capacity lost in shortening the 7mm's length.

Donnelly's book shows capacities for the 6.5x57 Mauser round as being a 53gr. while the 6.5x55 is listed as having a capacity of 55.04gr. The 7x57Mauser is listed as a 55.5gr. case according to that book & the 8x57 is listed as 62.68gr. This is due to the diameter of the neck, holding another 7gr. of water compared to the .264" neck.
It is possible the 8mm on the 6.5x55 case will have a 2gr. advantage over the 8x57, given they will both have the same neck. See the difference between the 6.5x55 and 6.5x57.

So - VERY close and loads for the 8x57 should be useable for a guide. I'd certainly start at or near the bottom suggested as starting loads - in the Euro books - or Hodgdon's Annual Manual, or the old Pacific Manual. These have quite similar load parameters, not being downloaded as badly as US manufacturers like RP and WW.

Hodgdon's data shows 150gr. at mid to high 2,900fps, 175gr. at 2,750's& one load over 2,800fps. 200gr. Speer, a MOST excellent moose bullet is punching out at low to mid 2,500fps and 220gr. Hornady at 2,400fps.

These are all .30/06 ranged ballstics, which is normal for a well loaded 8x57 - in Europe.

All bullet weights do well to best using Varget and H4895. BLC2 also garners top awards, as do 4320 and 4064. both IMR powders.

That's going to be fun working with. Not that many around that I'm seen - but then, we're quite isolated here. I wouldn't mind one myself, not that we've looked into it.

I even saved some 6.5x55 stripper clips - imagine that.

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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: DarylS]
      #222293 - 24/12/12 01:16 PM

Daryl,

Agreed on all the info. The 55mm case will hold the same as a 57mm. My current (stainless Tikka) 6.5x55 uses within 2% of H1000 with a 140 as does my 6.5x284.

In years gone by I had a 96 & a 95 mausers in 6.5x55 and 7x57 respectively, They both used the same load 47grs IMR4831 with 160's.

The fatter 55mm case cool. A friend has a SAKO on a pattern 98 style action chambered in 8x63mm. Common thought this would be a .30'06 case but it is the fatter 55mm style case. He lucked into a handful of cases that take standard primers. It outruns my old 300H&H.

The 8mm loads sound right on. I am thinking the top end stuff will have way more recoil than I am thinking I want to put with in this rifle. Anyway I have a scoped 8x57 to handle all of those variety of loads. It will indeed run with a .30'06. I agree with you on the 200gr Speer. Great bullet and maybe the cheapest jacket 8mm bullet available. I see Hornady has a 195 as well. With this rifle turning out to be a .323" it eases the pursuit of jacketed bullets. I noticed there is a custom LEE FN 215 and 225gr molds available as well.

Best I can come up with is that the original load was a 196 at 2300ish.

Anyway, loadwise, I like the original ballistics. The rear sight is a replacement, front sight seems genuine. Been thinking that I will find a fac. dup. load and then file the sight. Thinking a 100 standing and a 300 folding....thinking it will shoot flat enough for that. If I ever stumble over some original ammo I will be close with the sighting to use them.

Just really enjoying the feel of this old, long-ish, skinny, trim, round rifle. I am already re-learning the virtue of a light, iron sighted, long barreled, long-ish L.O.P. small around bolt rifle of plenty of power. It is no pristine collector piece, actually the near oppisite. It is a nice honest rifle I can learn from. I have missd having a rifle around to rub some oil on the wood and some Rangoon on the blue

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Igorrock
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Caprivi]
      #222298 - 24/12/12 04:35 PM

Quote:

A friend has a SAKO on a pattern 98 style action chambered in 8x63mm. Common thought this would be a .30'06 case but it is the fatter 55mm style case.


Could it be 8X63mm Swedish ?
http://www.8x63swedish.pridham.ca/history.html

By the way, I just bought reamer for 7x64 Brenneke to built a rifle to my SAKO m98 action.

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Caprivi
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Igorrock]
      #222318 - 25/12/12 02:24 AM

Igorrock, that is indeed the cartridge. Good find the article. I'll bet those light K98K's benefitted from the addition of the muzzlebrake.

I have lost touch with that rifle. I should try to look him up and inquiry (try to aquire) that rifle. I remember it being very plain wood (Arctic Beech ???) on a FN Sporter looking action (no thumb cut, swept handle) a long-ish light barrel with a single standing rear and a bead on ramp front. I don't think it was D&T.

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DarylS
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Caprivi]
      #222319 - 25/12/12 03:20 AM

Now I'm confused- is it 8x63 or 8x54?

If actually 8x54, and a fellow has an improved '08 case reamer with a .454" shoulder, the pilot could be bushed or changed to run in the .313" to .315" bore and open up the shoulder to .454". Any '08 IMP reamer will work as you don't need the neck cut, it's already there. Improving the chamber would increase the case capacity to about 60 or 61gr., same as the .284 case provides - just a thought for a unique chambering that no one else is likely to have at this time - ie: 8x54 Improved Krag. Mention that and everyone will be thinking of the .30/40 Krag case - no, no,no, it's actually ------- lots of fun.

If you went this way, a .308 die set would work, if opened up just a bit in the base as well as the neck.
Actually, the seater might have the correct neck size already - just a thought for a newish wildcat.

The ballistics would be quite similar to the .325 WSM, ie: 175gr. at 3,000fps. The shoulder would be increased from .435" to .454" - a full .020", along with the reduction in taper - a great little round.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: DarylS]
      #222330 - 25/12/12 06:53 AM

Quote:

Now I'm confused- is it 8x63 or 8x54?




Sorry Daryl, it is indeed a 8x54mm Krag Jorgensen. I think so anyway, won't see the bolt for a week yet, thanks to a very dumb seller and a worse Postal Service, to test fire some ammo I made up.

I got off on a tangent with Igorrock on the 8x63swede that uses the fatter .478" swede case head size, as opposed to the common .469"

I will test fire it then decide on its chamber. If all is cool, it will run as a 8x54mm KJ. If not "all is well" it will become a action donor.



Anyone have/seen any proper 8x54mm Krag brass available ???

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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DarylS
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Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Caprivi]
      #222332 - 25/12/12 08:09 AM

Quote:

If not "all is well" it will become a action donor.

It's always a 'way out'.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Igorrock
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Loc: Finland
Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: DarylS]
      #222351 - 26/12/12 12:27 AM

Quote:

thanks to a very dumb seller and a worse Postal Service,


In Europe is very common that you could send rifle/shotgun with cargo service if dismounted to several packages only which usually means that bolt is one packege and the rest of rifle an another.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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Caprivi
.375 member


Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Igorrock]
      #222357 - 26/12/12 04:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

thanks to a very dumb seller and a worse Postal Service,


In Europe is very common that you could send rifle/shotgun with cargo service if dismounted to several packages only which usually means that bolt is one packege and the rest of rifle an another.




So very true. I need to keep prespective. Here in the Colonies we are very use to timely delivery, without alot of interference. I would assume those days are drawing to a end. This can be a teachable moment for me, in tolerance. I enjoy this rifle already, I would imagine that a bolt and some noise from the muzzle will enhance than joy.



Merry Christmas

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Caprivi]
      #222571 - 30/12/12 02:31 PM

Wonder among wonders the Bolt arrived today. 1 month a 2 days after purchase. They sent it to Buffalo, NEW YORK, instead of Buffalo, Wyoming.

Anyway, I cobbled up 3 cases from new RP 6.5x55 cases, 14grs Unique, 170gr RN, They went Bang and the cases fell out fairly nice and far less wringled then they went in the chamber. After some cleaning and measuring, the Chamber is indeed cut for a 8x54mm Krag.

I am thinking it will get around the mid-40's of ReLoder15 with a 200gr Speer.

I have a 6.5x55 LEE die and a taperd 8mm expander ball/rod coming. The die neck will get reamed to .345" and the 8mm expander installed.........should make usable cases in one pass.....:):):)


Hey Daryl, you mentioned annealing dies, any insight you can give on your procedure would be welcome. Also thanks for the pictures of your dies in the 9x57 thread.......

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

Edited by Caprivi (30/12/12 02:52 PM)


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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Caprivi]
      #229823 - 08/05/13 02:20 PM

UPDATE

forgot about this post and have been tinkering away.
This rifle that started this post has/had a fairly large pit show up in the chamber after a vigorous cleaning. Nothing really to be done with it. It was traded as a donor.

The UPDATE. A Vapen Depoten/Falun M-30D has taken its place. This too is a pattern 96 action with the trimmed stock and rebored barrel. It is as well a 8x54KJ. No side panels like the earlier M3-D and a better excuted splice of the grip knob. Just a nice rough service rifle in a caliber to handle Alg.

I have managed to drop my camera so some pictures will be a bit of a wait.

I have fireformed 50 Lapua 6.5x55mm cases I had for just such a project. Headspace is spot on and neck/chamber/bore specs are all very agreeable......something I can't say about a certain M46 in 9.3x57mm. Now to try some 200gr Speers and ReLoder15


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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: 8x51 ??? No, really a 8x54mm Krag [Re: Caprivi]
      #230450 - 24/05/13 01:45 PM

It shoots on the sights to 200yds with 42grsRL15 and 200gr Noslers.

Infidelity has set in and my interest has waned. It will go on down the road.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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