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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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FrankMartinez
.300 member

Reged: 20/08/04
Posts: 111
Loc: The real Northern CA, USA

paradox help
#219752 - 17/11/12 05:42 PM

Anyone able to help me with an evaluation of a Paradox? I would appreciate any help.

What I have is a Holland And Holland 12 bore Paradox. It is plain but in very nice condition.It has Fosbury Patent stamped on one of the barrels.
98 Bond Street on the other.

I have shot some 12 gauge shot shells in it and they appear to pattern consistently. I have not tried any slugs yet.
It would appear to me that the but stock was replaced but if so very, very well done. barrels have matching serial numbers.
So do you have an idea of value?.
Here are the only photos I have.

Edited by CptCurl (18/11/12 10:42 PM)

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark

Re: paradox help [Re: FrankMartinez]
#219753 - 17/11/12 06:19 PM

In England I believe such gun would sell for about 3-4500£.

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gatsby
.375 member

Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: paradox help [Re: FrankMartinez]
#219754 - 17/11/12 07:15 PM

To me the first priority with a paradox is bore and choke measurements the further from original.... then wall thickness. Original finish or wear, the original configuration ie Royal or in your case Dominion. Lastly case and accessories. Without bore and choke measurements I couldn't give a value.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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jaz
.300 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US

Re: paradox help [Re: gatsby]
#220016 - 22/11/12 11:25 PM

Gatsby,
You are the man on the Paradox guns, but......
this is a Climax action and not a Dominion.
Frank - this can be verified if you look at the action flats, there will be two hooks which protrude from the front of the flats which connect to the barrels.
Otherwise, Gatsby is correct, the dimensions indicate if the gun will shoot.
In my opinion, the cheapest of cheap Paradox's will sell for at least 5K.

JZ

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gatsby
.375 member

Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: paradox help [Re: jaz]
#220148 - 24/11/12 04:17 PM

Quote:

Gatsby,
You are the man on the Paradox guns, but......
this is a Climax action and not a Dominion.
Frank - this can be verified if you look at the action flats, there will be two hooks which protrude from the front of the flats which connect to the barrels.
Otherwise, Gatsby is correct, the dimensions indicate if the gun will shoot.
In my opinion, the cheapest of cheap Paradox's will sell for at least 5K.

JZ

Okay, this gun pre dates the "Dominion" moniker by at least several decades. It is a # 2 or # 3 gun depending on the exact date (I refer to my #3 Holland rifle as a Dominion even though it was built in the 1890's). It is not what I think of as a Climax action but a derivative, I have heard the phrase Perks.
Check out this site and scroll down, they also use the word "Dominion" erroneously

http://www.jblanchdatabase.co.uk/technical.htm

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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jaz
.300 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US

Re: paradox help [Re: gatsby]
#220268 - 26/11/12 12:43 PM

The lock on the Climax has an indentation on the bottom back, where the Dominion does not. Your 577 is a Dominion, as Mr Winks said "our strongest action"....

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gatsby
.375 member

Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: paradox help [Re: gatsby]
#220289 - 26/11/12 07:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Gatsby,
You are the man on the Paradox guns, but......
this is a Climax action and not a Dominion.
Frank - this can be verified if you look at the action flats, there will be two hooks which protrude from the front of the flats which connect to the barrels.
Otherwise, Gatsby is correct, the dimensions indicate if the gun will shoot.
In my opinion, the cheapest of cheap Paradox's will sell for at least 5K.

JZ

Okay, this gun pre dates the "Dominion" moniker by at least several decades. It is a # 2 or # 3 gun depending on the exact date (I refer to my #3 Holland rifle as a Dominion even though it was built in the 1890's). It is not what I think of as a Climax action but a derivative, I have heard the phrase Perks.
Check out this site and scroll down, they also use the word "Dominion" erroneously

http://www.jblanchdatabase.co.uk/technical.htm

Just to be clear when I referred to "it" outside the parenthesis I meant the OP's Paradox and inside my rifle. and to clarify or confuse the issue further from Dallas British Sporting Gun and Rifle

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

Edited by CptCurl (01/12/12 11:39 PM)

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Grenadier
.375 member

Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA

Re: paradox help [Re: gatsby]
#220294 - 26/11/12 08:17 PM

Though the shape of the lock in the OPs picture looks somewhat like that of the Climax in the book, the pin configuration is very different. And then there is that darned crossbolt...

Frank, are you just looking at this gun online somewhere?

--------------------
~

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gatsby
.375 member

Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: paradox help [Re: Grenadier]
#220299 - 26/11/12 08:44 PM

Franks gun is certainly an odd duck. If you take into context the statements from Dallas on the Holland grade 2, a first step away from the Climax action and towards the Dominion and the other descriptions of the back action locks from Scott on the site I provided, Franks gun is a possibility. A one of perhaps. Scott did make use of the crossbolt.

This is another Holland a Paradox grade 2, 7 or 8 years after the gun depicted by Dallas.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

Edited by CptCurl (01/12/12 11:40 PM)

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jaz
.300 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US

Re: paradox help [Re: gatsby]
#220347 - 27/11/12 12:38 PM

Here is a picture of a 10 bore shotgun, H&H which states "Climax Safety Hammerless" on the action.

Edited by CptCurl (01/12/12 11:38 PM)

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CommandCar
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA

Re: paradox help [Re: FrankMartinez]
#221787 - 17/12/12 02:32 PM

Frank,

Assuming you have had the paradox checked by a gunsmith.... Why not buy a box of paradox ammunition from Lewis Drake and see if it regulates?

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: paradox help [Re: CommandCar]
#221943 - 19/12/12 01:44 PM

Neat piece, could be tons of fun to get up and running.
Does the stock head up to the action properly?
May we see a photo of the muzzles?

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gatsby
.375 member

Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: paradox help [Re: tinker]
#221950 - 19/12/12 02:46 PM

Frank has gone silent since his initial post. It would be nice to see if this gun was a Holland or not.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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SidebySide
.224 member

Reged: 13/02/15
Posts: 12
Loc: USA

Re: paradox help [Re: gatsby]
#260507 - 15/02/15 05:24 AM

I am apparently the new owner of this paradox, I would like to find out more about this gun. I found this website searching for information about this gun, so this is my first post.
Thanks,
Ken

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: paradox help [Re: SidebySide]
#260511 - 15/02/15 07:47 AM

Ken Welcome to NitroExpress!

Post some photos of your gun please.
We'll work to help clarify things for you.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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SidebySide
.224 member

Reged: 13/02/15
Posts: 12
Loc: USA

Re: paradox help [Re: tinker]
#260517 - 15/02/15 09:16 AM

Please bare with me as I am trying to learn how to post pictures.
Ken

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SidebySide
.224 member

Reged: 13/02/15
Posts: 12
Loc: USA

Re: paradox help [Re: SidebySide]
#260520 - 15/02/15 10:11 AM

Edited by SidebySide (15/02/15 10:18 AM)

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SidebySide
.224 member

Reged: 13/02/15
Posts: 12
Loc: USA

Re: paradox help [Re: SidebySide]
#260524 - 15/02/15 11:33 AM

more pictures

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Rockdoc
.400 member

Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1212
Loc: NSW, Australia

Re: paradox help [Re: SidebySide]
#260527 - 15/02/15 02:16 PM

From the serial number probably around 1894.

Nice gun!

Cheers,

Chris

Edited by Rockdoc (15/02/15 02:17 PM)

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: paradox help [Re: Rockdoc]
#260531 - 15/02/15 05:20 PM

My first step would be to contact H&H.

They likely will have some information for you.
Also I'd measure the bores and cast and measure the chokes.

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SidebySide
.224 member

Reged: 13/02/15
Posts: 12
Loc: USA

Re: paradox help [Re: tinker]
#260547 - 16/02/15 03:38 AM

I have already contacted H&H and they say the records do not show the gun as a Paradox, I have also bought the book on Paradox by David J. Baker and Roger E. Lake and read "that the H&H records are not complete. There are all degrees of missing information, up to and including all the details on a number of Paradox."
I have contacted Roger Lake and he said that the gun based on my observations (as I did not have the gun in my possession) that it may have been built by W.C. Scott for Holland and Holland. This gun is clearly a Paradox, there are the markings H2227 on the frame and the barrels, the barrels serial number is 15103 of which H&H had no records. It is believed that the serial number was a mistake by the person stamping the barrels.
Any additional information would be appreciated,
Ken

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tazswe
.224 member

Reged: 27/10/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Sweden

Re: paradox help [Re: SidebySide]
#260557 - 16/02/15 06:21 AM

Congratulations to a nice gun!

Have you measured the bores and found a suitable mould for it?

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TH44
.375 member

Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK

Re: paradox help [Re: tazswe]
#260563 - 16/02/15 11:46 AM

Very nice but I cannot add too much to the previous information as mine are both hammer and earlier

W & C Scott certainly made many of the early H&H guns/rifles - pre 1893/4 when H&H built their new factory

As these hammerless guns/rifles were first produced before then it is logical to assume they probably made this Paradox

Is there any possibility that the barrels were replacement (at the same time, 1890s?) - the crossbolt precludes it being originally a shotgun

Good luck in your shooting, if you do not wish to use Paradox loads, round ball (Jeff Tanner in the UK will make any size very reasonably) is always a safe and good option

TH44

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SidebySide
.224 member

Reged: 13/02/15
Posts: 12
Loc: USA

Re: paradox help [Re: TH44]
#260565 - 16/02/15 12:44 PM

Thanks tazswe and TH44,
I have not shot the gun yet and am not sure whether I will.
I actually purchased the gun to resell but would like to clarify any concerns before I offer it for sale. I believe the number H2227 may be the answer and have heard that it may be a marking used by W.C. Scott. The stock is clearly a replacement and I would like to have it checkered to match the original Dealy and Edge forend.
Thanks,

Ken

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gungadoug
.333 member

Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM

Re: paradox help [Re: SidebySide]
#261555 - 04/03/15 12:01 AM

Tim Smith-Lyon does impressive checkering reasonably, and quickly.
Doug

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ohiochuck
.224 member

Reged: 25/11/13
Posts: 11
Loc: Ohio

Re: paradox help [Re: gungadoug]
#267962 - 14/07/15 02:53 AM

Hi!
15 years ago I owned an H&H Dominion Paradox in 12 b. Foolishly I sold it.

The Double Gun Journal had an article written by Sherman Bell in the Winter 2010 issue. It is excellent reference in loads, etc.
Jim

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