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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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Matabele
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Reged: 16/09/10
Posts: 230
Loc: Zimbabwe
Building Actions
      #219477 - 12/11/12 01:13 AM

Hi all,

I have ordered Ellis Browns book Building DR's on Shotgun Actions but I was wondering if there are any resources out there for building actions from scratch?

Any info appreciated thanks!


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tward1604
.275 member


Reged: 14/07/10
Posts: 51
Loc: texas
Re: Building Actions [Re: Matabele]
      #219490 - 12/11/12 05:52 AM

+1

--------------------
Thank you
SGT
USMC


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CowboyCS
.333 member


Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Kansas u.S.A.
Re: Building Actions [Re: tward1604]
      #219491 - 12/11/12 07:05 AM

If you've got 8 hours or so, you can start here: Stolzer and Son's Gunsmithing Blog Start with part 1(Sept 16, 2011) and work your way forward and it should give you a pretty good idea of how to build an action. At the bottom right of the blog there is a "newer posts" button, there are 6 pages total(36 parts so far). I tried to document it as well as possible. There is a thread here on the forum: 2 Bore Double Duece if you have any questions.

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing


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Matabele
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Reged: 16/09/10
Posts: 230
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Re: Building Actions [Re: CowboyCS]
      #219502 - 12/11/12 03:51 PM

Fantastic information, thanks very much for posting!

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twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Building Actions [Re: Matabele]
      #219646 - 15/11/12 12:12 PM

Matabele,

Setterguy has a post in this forum about building a double rifle on a Winchester Model 21 action and he's building the action as well.

My understanding is that he's using CNC to build the action.

He hasn't posted progress photos in a while but it's a great project.

Perhaps we need someone with a 3D Scanner to scan a Back action, sidelock ejector, side by side H & H for us and produce a solid model for "circulation". More people working on it the better.

There's a very good tretise on the CAD/CAM/CNC process in #195 issue of Model Engineers Workshop magazine, using free download software, if you are inclined to go this route.


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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Building Actions [Re: twobobbwana]
      #219703 - 16/11/12 04:02 PM

Yes, I am building a Winchester 21 action from solid stock. I have had a few months setback on my schedule but it is proceeding. I will post more pictures of the process after the first of the year. In a nutshell the barrels are complete and ready for regulation. I think I posted pictures of them. As soon as the action is finished I can then complete the project. I am using CNC milling and computer controlled wire (EDM)to make the parts. If you start such a project be prepared for a couple of years work and significant outlays of money. Laser 3-D scanning is not good enough for the precision and accuracy necessary. You also cannot simply do the scan then program the CNC machine. You must first validate and verify the computer code and make a full sized prototype from the code to confirm the tolerances. Remember the probe cannot really reach all the recesses of a DR receiver. You must both measure and extrapolate. You must also ensure that the programing is done such that you don't have interference as the tooling changes position. Laying out the tooling and ensuring accuracy of machining is a major job. You will then need to modify the code for inaccuracies. All of this causes delay and costs money. I know of one man who spent all the effort and money to develop the code but didn't verify. He simply went to production and none of the shotguns would function. It cost him many 10s of thousand of dollars. My point is that there is NO shortcut when making a precision firearm like a double rifle or a quality side by side shotgun. That is why they cost so much. For the most part they are hand made. Even using a CNC only means you can duplicate something by machine but the front end part is what separates quality from junk. The only reason I have spent the time and effort is because I will build both DRs and shotguns and I want them to interchange. Computerized systems are really the only way to accomplish that. I have to say it has been fun but very frustrating at times. Just don't underestimate the effort and you will enjoy the outcome. ------Bill

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Matabele
.300 member


Reged: 16/09/10
Posts: 230
Loc: Zimbabwe
Re: Building Actions [Re: Setterguy]
      #219705 - 16/11/12 06:57 PM

Thanks for the updated information gents!! I will try and find your thread Bill and have a look. I agree an opensource model of these actions would be fantastic!

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Setterguy
.275 member


Reged: 09/06/11
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Re: Building Actions [Re: Matabele]
      #219722 - 17/11/12 02:47 AM

Regarding the open source dream-----It would be really nice but it is not going to happen on anything other than some simple part. For a whole DR including the monobloc, receiver, top lever, trigger guard, floor or trigger plate, forearm shoe, and forearm plate is an incredible amount of work and significant expense. I simply cannot imagine someone doing all that to create an open source. However, that does not mean that it is totally out of reach on a more limited basis. The requirements would be:
1. A good experienced project manager
2. A group of forum members to commit to fund the project and own the intellectual property i.e. the validated and verified computer code
3. An agreement on the action. Note: This would be hard amoung this group; perhaps the hardest part!!
4. Someone to loan the complete DR so it can be disassembled. Note: It would be returned at the end of the project after validation and verification but this may be two years. This item may facilitate the decision on 3. above.
5. A commitment for the duration of the project i.e. about two years. This could be shorter if availability of crafts are optimal.
6. A memo of commitment from all participants on the terms and conditions of the project and ownership of the itellectual property. We should note here that each of the participants must protect the intellectual property on behalf of the other members UNLESS the body of participants is large enough i.e. individual costs small, and an agreement is made beforehand to make the computer code available to all forum members. That can be done but must be unanimous amoung those funding the project.
7. Ensure that no patents or trademarks are violated.

Having said all the above, it is a doable project and one that can be exciting to document for the forum members. I will offer an intriging opportunity to fellow forum members.

A group of members commit to the project under the terms and conditions above but donate the intellectual property i.e. computer code to the NitroExpress forum. Any member could then "buy-in" i.e. pay what would amout to a field of use for the code and the money would go to the forum for administration and enhancement. The orginal members would already have the code for their unlimited use. This would give the forum a revenue stream and make an already great site even better. This would be a very valuable piece of intellectual property if done on a popular action.

Food for thought--------------Bill


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StephenCoker
.300 member


Reged: 01/12/11
Posts: 140
Loc: AR, United States of America
Re: Building Actions [Re: Setterguy]
      #219728 - 17/11/12 04:16 AM

Setterguy,
Thank you for bringing some very valid points to bare. 1. CNC and CAD/CAM isn't the end-all it's often proposed to be. Other work is necessary to ensure success, and that often gets overlooked. 2. The effort is only worth it when you want production volumes and and a certain level of interchangeability.

I can offer 10 years of Project and Program Management experience as well as process improvement consulting, plus growing up as the son of a gunsmith and now a gunmaker myself. I'm still laughing at number 3 as you had me until "Winchester 21" was thrown in there! Great discussion.

--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.


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twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Building Actions [Re: StephenCoker]
      #219808 - 19/11/12 11:59 AM

Bill,

All very relevant points. Thank you for your firsthand input.

I didn't see a posting of the barrells on your 21 but I'm probably not looking in the right place.

I can see that such a "communal" project would be quite complicated especially as soon you include any number of people. Along the lines of "a giraffe is a horse put together by a committee".

I agree with your statement on "Laser 3-D scanning is not good enough for the precision and accuracy necessary. You also cannot simply do the scan then program the CNC machine. You must first validate and verify the computer code and ........". This is my understanding as well. I thought it may be a shortcut to producing the intitial solid model. Even in the CAM process the generated G codes must be edited and later put through a simulation program in order to ensure that your machine will do what you want it too.

This is only what I've read. I have not completed any CNC machining.

For interest sake take a look at www.cncguns.com and look at his projects and the downloads. There are some very good cut by cut photos on this site. Perhaps not the best description of the whole process though. As I've already stated the Model Engineers Workshop article is the best description of the process that I've encountered.

While the particular firearms involved may not interest all of us it is certainly a great indication of what can be done. There's alot of shared information (solid models etc) on that site.......go to the "downloads" section.

I do understand, with the money and effort that you've put into your project, why you would not wish to "give it away".

Thanks for posting your project. Keep up the good work and please keep us "in the loop" so we can see your progress.


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Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1649
Loc: Finland
Re: Building Actions [Re: twobobbwana]
      #219832 - 19/11/12 06:32 PM

Interesting site but sadly not any projects whose interests me. Only modern pistols and self loading weapons. :-(

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Building Actions [Re: Igorrock]
      #220981 - 06/12/12 03:31 AM

Hi,

I don;t know if this is of any help, but I recently found an old article by Nikitas Kypridemos in ane arly issue of Gun Digest where he discusses improvements to the boxlock design to make it shallower, lighter and with less moving parts, beginning with the original design and ending with the then latest designs from Gough Thomas and himself. There are several drawings in it and if this project ever takes off, I could talk to the editor at Gun Digest who is a very nice lady and has been talking about working with these forums with me and John and use it as a starting point to collect data for this "open source" project.

I must stress here that I am neither a gunsmith, nor am I an engineer. Neither is the editor whom I mentioned. However, we are both journalists and could help research various early designs and put them together in order for the experts here to work with towards what eventually becomes a "Nitroexpress Forum" design.

Please let me know if this is of interest, and I'll take matters forward. Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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StephenCoker
.300 member


Reged: 01/12/11
Posts: 140
Loc: AR, United States of America
Re: Building Actions [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #220995 - 06/12/12 05:45 AM

mehulkamdar,

Which issue of Gun Digest?

--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.


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Matabele
.300 member


Reged: 16/09/10
Posts: 230
Loc: Zimbabwe
Re: Building Actions [Re: StephenCoker]
      #221045 - 06/12/12 05:15 PM

All sounds very interesting! I am trying to download SolidWorks modelling software. Im a rank novice and will have to teach myself how to use the software, but If i can help with "roughing" out the design for the experts to finish off, I'd be happy to contribute.

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Building Actions [Re: StephenCoker]
      #221226 - 09/12/12 01:37 PM

Stephen,

I look through my old Gun Digests and post the details in a day or two. Just need to look through the whole pile s I don't remember which year it was. Age is the reason why.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Building Actions [Re: StephenCoker]
      #221296 - 10/12/12 05:04 PM

Stephen,

Just found the article and the issue - sorry for the delay. Gun Digest 1991 / 45th Annual Edition. "The Perfected Boxlock" by Nikitas Kypridemos, pages 6 to 13. I re-read the article and it is very well written and informative even to a complete novice like me. Would appreciate the views of the experienced members here on this - and, if it relates to this planned "open source design" project, I'll be happy to talk to the Gun Digest editors and get their support.

Please let me know what you think. Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Setterguy
.275 member


Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Building Actions [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #221348 - 11/12/12 04:16 PM

Nititas is an excellent journalist and designer. He is nearing completion of an orginal design for a double barrel shotgun. I consider him an expert on the various locking mechanisms of virtually all kinds of double barrel shotguns. I will contact him after Christmas and see if he wants to share photos of his progress. It is a shotgun and not a DR though.----------Bill

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Building Actions [Re: Setterguy]
      #221358 - 11/12/12 10:46 PM

Bill,

The article that I've posted about is also about shotguns. However, he does talk about strengthening his basic low profile boxlock design (and there are pictures of it as made by an unnamed Italian gunmaker at the time - he should have improved the design since) and I guessed that those of you who actually build guns (as opposed to interested students like myself) would use the principles that he describes to build a double rifle action with your own variations / changes.

Since he is a friend of yours, it is possibly the best thing that could happen, if he might look at this thread when he has time and share his suggestions / pictures of his work if it isn't hush-hush.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Setterguy
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Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Building Actions [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #221374 - 12/12/12 03:51 AM

Okay, I will contact him sooner rather than later.-----------Bill

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Building Actions [Re: Setterguy]
      #221475 - 13/12/12 11:42 AM

Thank you very much, Bill.

I'd also like to announce that the Editor of Gun Digest has offered to support this project and this is a Facebook quote from the official Gun Digest page on the subject.

I do think that the combination of experts here and the Gun Digest group will produce some really fascinating results. Thanks to my friend John Hahn, founder of these forums, and to everyone who has offered time and their expertise on this very unique thread. Hope to hear from Mr Kypridemos, thanks to your efforts,when he finds time.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Setterguy
.275 member


Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Building Actions [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #221495 - 13/12/12 03:35 PM

I contacted Nikitas and he will certainly contribute his extensive knowledge. However, he is having trouble with the membership process. Until he gets this straightened out he can only read and not post in the thread. Here is part of the e-mail from him:

"In the meantime, if members want to read some more comments, some a little irreverent re traditional ways, there is my site http://www.oplognosia.com/ which is mostly in Greek but has several English articles."

It is likely that your computer will make a reasonable translation for you.

Both Nikitas and I will have completed a project from two different processes in the near future. Nikitas's project is from "concept to finished shotgun" meaning he conceived and designed the shotgun then had a computer engineer create a 3-D file from that. That is quite different than what I have done which was to take an existing shotgun dimensions, create a steel prototype with some changes, work out all the inaccuracies, do a 3-D scan of that prototype (you can see pictures of that on my other threads), utilize the computer to ensure symmetry, then create the CNC machinable file from that that will make both a DR and a shotgun. The fundamental difference is creating a new design vs using the foundation of a known and proven design.

Regarding the fascinating offer from the Editor of Gun Digest, we collectively can do this project if we really want to and are willing to bear a sustained effort and significant cost. Let me first say, that designing a new DR from blank engineering paper (computer really) is a substantial effort that may be beyond the ability of a "committee" to do. The stress calculations to ensure safe operation with large bore cartridges is substantial along with significant liability issues. There is no doubt that the collective knowledge of this group could take the best design features of several DRs and create one. This is a very big design job more suited for a design firm but could be done. However, the fastest and most predictable route to an open source DR would be to take an existing one with recognized superior design, no patent issues, and go through the route I did. I outlined this process earlier in this thread. It would not be a really big problem to incorporate modifications to enhance the design though.

We have not heard from the management of NitroExpress if they support such an effort. I don't think we can go forward without the express commitment of the NitroExpress administrator. Should both the Editor of Gun Digest and the Administor of NitroExpress desire to discuss this with me please PM me with contact information and I would be happy to discuss further.-----------Bill


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Building Actions [Re: Setterguy]
      #221499 - 13/12/12 03:51 PM

Bill,

I am not sure if this meets with what the ownership of the forums has in mind, but these forums are not a commercial gun manufacturing or design venture. That said, there have been several gunmakers and hobbyists who have participated and posted details of their work here. What the Nitroexpress Forums do offer is a forum where ideas could be exchanged, articles stored for future reference and so on. Gun Digest would have their own way of dealing with this, but, I am sure that they, too, would work on the basis of considering an article for publication. If this doesn't work, then we'll have to wait until someone who is doing something decides to post information about their work here. As it is, from what I am clearly aware of, John has only invested his money and time into these forums, and they are a labor of love, not a profit making business.

That said, several gunmakers have participated here and found their participation good both in terms of the publicity that they have received as well as in the indirect business that this has led to. You have to decide what your participation would be - thank you for your posts and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Setterguy
.275 member


Reged: 09/06/11
Posts: 78
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Building Actions [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #221602 - 14/12/12 03:25 PM

Mehukamdar,
I think you must have misunderstood me. I was not suggesting a profit making motive in any fashion and certainly not for me. I am not in this business. I was offering to be involved as a volunteer or not at all and would not accept any other way. What I am saying is that to do a first rate job on creating an open literature DR for the members to use will cost several thousand dollars. Someone must pay that to the company doing the scan, the modelers that take the scan and create code, the machinist to actually set the tooling and create the prototype. This is just actual costs that must be borne by someone or a group of people. If we have a benefactor out there willing to fund this, that is great but if not, it will take a group of members to put up the funds. Earlier in the thread I suggested the following:

"A group of members commit to the project under the terms and conditions above but donate the intellectual property i.e. computer code to the NitroExpress forum. Any member could then "buy-in" i.e. pay what would amout to a field of use for the code and the money would go to the forum for administration and enhancement. The orginal members would already have the code for their unlimited use. This would give the forum a revenue stream and make an already great site even better. This would be a very valuable piece of intellectual property if done on a popular action."

This is not a profit mode; in fact is is distinctly non-profit. Any funds generated would be reinvested in the Forum. I simply threw this out at the end of a long post. It was certainly not a well thoughtout proposal by any means and wasn't meant to be one. It was simply said to create some inventive thoughts for others to suggest how how it could be done. The steps I outlined though are from experience. There are no acceptable shortcuts that would result in a safe and acceptable design offered to the open membership. A superficial scan offered would be irresponsible.

I am sorry if I confused you or anyone on previous posts. This thread has morfed considerably from the start. Perhaps you should suggest a title along with value proposition and start a new thread along the lines you believe to be appropriate. This would invite more members to suggest a process toward an open literature DR if that is the desire. My best-------------Bill


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Englishman
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Reged: 09/12/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Lot,France
Re: Building Actions [Re: Setterguy]
      #229094 - 21/04/13 03:30 AM

It may be an "easier" route to go down,if you have sufficient gunmaking skills,to buy a ready machined "kit" these are available in the UK for a H&H style double at around £5000 complete minus stock and barrels.

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