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zr2paul
.224 member


Reged: 12/02/04
Posts: 45
Loc: Ontario, Canada
9.3x74R VS .375H&H
      #21823 - 07/12/04 04:36 AM

We own a 9.3x74R O/U and we absolutely love shooting with it. Great caliber that can be used for a large variety of game without the worry of a heavy recoil. Originally we were looking at the .375H&H but after much research we felt the 9.3x74R would be the better gun. We currently do North American Big Game hunting and one day hopefully get to experience an African Safari whether it be with the 9.3X74R, .470NE or the .458Win.

Anyway, I'd like to start a debate "9.3x74R VS .375H&H" just to hear some opinions. Let's keep it clean and no blows below the belt

"Ding Ding Ding"

Paul

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foxfire
.375 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 511
Loc: Long Island N.Y.,
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: zr2paul]
      #21831 - 07/12/04 07:08 AM

I think the concensus here seems to be they are pretty close to equal. The 375 H&H gets the nod because it's legal to use for "Dangerous Game" where the 9.3x74R @.366 diameter might not be.

--------------------
No good deed goes unpunished

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: foxfire]
      #21837 - 07/12/04 07:32 AM

In reply to:

The 375 H&H gets the nod because it's legal to use for "Dangerous Game" where the 9.3x74R @.366 diameter might not be.



The 9.3X74R is not dirrectly compared to the 375H&H belted Mag, but is paired with the 375 H&H Flanged. The 9.3X74R is a balistic twin to the 9.3X62 Mauser, and is legal in all but a hand full of provences for dangerous game. In some places the 9.3X62, and 9.3X74R are legal for the cats only. In a double rifle I wouldn't hesitate to take on, even Elephant with a solid with the 9.3X74R, in open bush, but in close quarters it is just a little too light for my taste, especialy if the animal is wounded.

Though I wouldn't worry much about it,for myself, I can't say I would reccomend either of the 9.3s, or the 375 H&H, as a close quarters life saver,to just anyone, but for general hunting all are good with proper loads, and bullet placement.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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lapsub
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 24
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #21978 - 09/12/04 03:32 AM

i agree with dugaboy that the 9.3x74R is a ballistic twin to the 9.3x62.

i have a double rifle in 9.3x74R made by -- i think -- "Bemesu", whoever that is.....and i have a new CZ 550 in 9.3x62 replacing a much older ferlach 9.3x62. i get virtually identical maximum muzzle velocities from the 9.3x62 and 9.3x74R using 300 grain swift a-frames (but with quite different powder loads).

but being identical to the 9.3x62 means that the 9.3x74R has VERY LITTLE edge over a .35 whelen! and the .35 whelen sure as heck is NOT a cartridge for african dangerous game!

look at the numbers: a .35 whelen will give a 0.358 diameter 275 gr bullet about 2300 ft/sec and a 300 gr about 2225 fps.

either the 9.3x62 or the 9.3x74R will give a .366 diameter 270 gr bullet about 2300 fps and a 293 gr about 2225 fps. maybe youi could safely get the 9.3x74R up to 2300 ft/sec without shooting the frame loose but you would have to re-regulate it because it surely wasn't regulated for 2300 fps with 293's.......

and obviously .366 is a tad closer in diameter to .358 than it is to .375, but it surely isn't a meaningful difference either way: .358 is 2% smaller diameter than .366, and .375 is 2% larger than .366 and the animal isn't carrying micrometers to check the size of the hole in his hide.

so if both 9.3's move the "same" diameter & same brand/type bullets at the same weights at the same velocities as the .35 whelen, they will perform the same on game. there is no voodoo involved.

now the 9.3x64 brenneke, that is in the .375 belted H&H class, a big leap above the whelen.

but sorry, the 9.3x74R and the 9.3x62 and the .35 whelen just aren't reliable IMHO for dangerous african game. i use mine routinely for large wild boar, also for black bear, and soon hopefully for moose.

if you are "brave" enough to use a 9.3 on something nasty, may i recommend woodleigh's 320 gr weldcore at about 2100 fps? that is one tough bullet, and a real stopper.

regards

lapsub

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: lapsub]
      #22003 - 09/12/04 01:13 PM

...imho, a purely numerical approach may be deceptive...there is nearly a hundred years of field-based history behind the 9.3s that supports everything that has been written about the cartridge...and the ballistics charts indicate superior terminal performance of the 9.3s when compared to even factory .375s at 100+ ranges...

...am sure that the .35 whelen is a great cartridge for all sorts of game, but to say that the 9.3s are more like the .35 whelen because of bullet diametres and muzzle velocities than the .375s, and then to impose .35 whelen gaming guidelines is to ignore a hundred year of history of the use of the cartridge for all sorts of dg, even eles., imho...

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lapsub
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 24
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #22047 - 10/12/04 05:45 AM

sorry, but i quite disagree with mr edwards.

there is no voodoo or supernatural power to a cartridge.

all other factors being equal, it simply launches a certain type of projectile at a certain speed.

if the bullet design/comstruction is identical, as are bullet weight and diameter, and you shoot them at the identical muzzle veolicty from an equivalent rifle (re accuracy for example), then you will get identical results on game.

the main reason that some cartridges have a better reputation in use on game than does another cartridge with pretty much the same ballistics is 99% of the time attributable to one simple factor: the type of bullet used in terms of design & construction. this was especially true of african hunting during the classic period.

most of the time, it was NOT an apples-to-apples comparison such as i stipulated. there were huge variations in the bullet weights & sectional densities of cartridges used -- which accounted for a large amount of the disparities in penetration between similar cartridges.

example: 300 grain bullets in the .333 jeffery versus 250 grains in the .318 westley-richards which is actually .330 groove diameter. so of course the jeffery penetrated better with the same type bullets but 20% higher sectional density.

similarly there were huge differences in bullet design & construction. for example a german TUG bullet simply penetrated better than an ordinary english softpoint of the same weight.

and there were periods where the quality of some english ammo such as kynochs was quite horrible. their solids failed miserably for years and got a bad reputation.

my point is that the anecdotal historical "evidence" cited is NOT an apples-to-apples comparison of two cartridges.

as i said before, IF you use the same design/construction bullets -- such as swift a-frames in both cases, or woodleigh weldcores in both cases -- the 9.3x74 and 9.3x62 are almost identical to the .35 whelen in ballistics AND on game performance. i have used them all extensively on wild boar and black bear and see no practical difference in the field.

if there was a difference with identical bullets, how could you possibly explain it? voodoo?

apologies, but i am cynical scientist who tries to remove the romance and mystique and focus on hard facts.

regards

lapsub

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: lapsub]
      #22050 - 10/12/04 06:56 AM

Why don't people put thier details in the profiles?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: lapsub]
      #22057 - 10/12/04 12:07 PM

...fair enough...

...to each his / her own as they say...

...good hunting / shooting...

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Rell
.375 member


Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #22065 - 10/12/04 04:58 PM

I have a bit of practical field experience with the 9.3x57, 9.3x62 and a little with the 375hh. I got most of my experience culling nusance bears, around 45 and hunting maybe 20 deer and 7 moose. about 50% with the 9.3x57, 30% with the 9.3x62 and the rest with the 375hh.

In my limited experience the 9.3x57 and 9.3x62 both penetrate bettter then the 375hh. All with hornady and speer 286gr .366 and 300gr .375 bullets. The 375hh does seem to make them stand up and then fall over better then the 9.3's.

This is subjective and a matter of opinion but I stopped using the 9.3's to follow wounded bears after I had one come pretty close to using my leg as a chew toy. The 375hh seems to stop charges better, maybe not drop them in there tracks 100% of the time, but turns them with authority.

Bullet placement is king, but I like the slightly larger margin of error that the 375hh allows.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: Rell]
      #22325 - 17/12/04 01:06 PM

...they say that the 9.3's achieve better penetration because of the bullet's sectional density and lower velocities...but then again the calibre's performance on short range dg encounters may leave much to be desired, as you have well noted...

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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #22639 - 25/12/04 09:57 AM

I consider the 9.3x74 a minimum caliber for Buffalo..The 375 H&H is considerably more powerful than the 9.3x74 any way you cut it...Is the extra power neeeded? might be someday, who knows..

I would hunt with either if thats all I had...I have seen a few buff shot with the 9.3x74 and have shot a number of buff with the 9.3x62 ( a bit more gun ) and have shot more than a few with the 375..I have seen buff shot with about everything...For myself I like the 416s or 404 best and in a double I like the 450-400 and 470 but thats the only two double rifle calibers that I have used on DG, and both work fine.....

The 9.3s will not penetrate like a 375, SD is fine but you still have to have the needed velocity to get it to work...besides a 375 has more SD than a 9.3 for most bullets.

Bottom line is the 9.3 are nice calibers and I have and shoot one and I love it, but is no 375 H&H.

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lapsub
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 24
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: atkinson6]
      #22710 - 27/12/04 10:13 AM

with regard to mr. ray atkinson's comments, above, i can only say "amen, brother".

a 286 grain 9.3 at 2300 fps simply is not equal to a 300 gr .375 at 2550 ft/sec.

there are some fine bullets available in 9.3/.366 but the exact same bullets are also available in .375, and when you move the .375/300 gr out of the muzzle at 250 ft/sec faster than the .366/286, it makes a difference.....

and the 286 gr in 9.3 is a perfect comparison to a 300 gr in .375 since the sectional densities are the same, 0.305 for both

[i certainly am glad that i agree with mr. atkinson, since i would not have the gumption to disagree in public with such a world-renowned authority!!!]

merry christmas to all

lapsub

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: lapsub]
      #22776 - 29/12/04 05:56 AM

Lapsub,
Thank you kindly for the kind words but your scaring the crap out of me!

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: lapsub]
      #22835 - 30/12/04 03:49 AM

...no argument here from me...tho i would note that i would not even consider a 375 hh mag in a double...will continue to use my 9.3 double for most large-game hunting chores, and a 416 rigby turnbolt for the nastier stuff...

...would be useful to look at what kevin robertson says about the 375 hh in 'the perfect shot' on the question of recommended dg bullet velocities and the norma ballistic charts comparing terminal energy levels of the 9.3 and 375 at 100+ yard ranges...for a contrarian perspective...

...in any case, to each his/her own as they say...

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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #22944 - 31/12/04 10:58 AM

TE,
I agree, no rimless rounds for me in a double. The 9.3x74 is certainly enough gun for Buffalo IMO..I have shot quite a few with a 9.3x62 with good results and they are about equal for all practical purposes. It's hard to tell the difference in the 9.34 and the 375, but I think the 375 does do a better job, maybe....???????????

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lapsub
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 24
Re: 9.3x74R VS .375H&H [Re: atkinson6]
      #23217 - 03/01/05 06:15 AM

i also have both a 9.3x62 (CZ 550) and a 9.3x74R ("Bemesu" markings, guild gun..?).

i use the same bullets in both cartridges, usually the swift 300 gr a-frame, but also woodleigh's 320 gr weldcore for tougher stuff, and occasionally the nosler 286 gr partition.

and for any ONE of the three bullets, my loads in the 9.3x62 and the 9.3x74R are typically within 25 to 50 ft/sec of each other, with a maximum spread between the two of 75 to 100 fps.

[i do NOT mean that the spread is that small between say the 286 gr in the 9.3x62 and the 320 gr in 9.3x74R; i mean an apples-to-apples comparison with the 286 in the 9.3x62 versus the 286 in the 9.3x74R; OR the 300 in 62mm vs 300 in 74R; OR 320 versus 320.]

so i agree 100% with mr atkinson that the two cartridges are ballistically virtually identical.

by the way, the thread i started on my mystery 9.3x74R with no maker's name on the barrels/rib has pretty much died out......but if any of you 9.3x74R buffs recognize the name "Bemesu" -- which is hidden on both the inside of the receiver and under the barrels, so you can't see either when the rifle is closed -- please let me know.

a gentleman in sweden has one almost identical to mine but its only markings on the rib are a distributor in poland, other than the two hidden Bemesu markings, same as mine.

another chap in russia said he thought the name Bemesu was latvian.

it has german proof marks from 1924, but the chap in st petersburg said that was typical of latvian guns between the wars, proofed in germany.....

thanks for any info you can forward me.

and a happy & healthy new years to everyone

lapsub

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