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NitroXAdministrator
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Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo?
      #21810 - 07/12/04 02:00 AM

A discussion.

Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for water buffalo?

A friend wishes to use one, his "new" rifle. I will say more, but what are your thoughts?



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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #21812 - 07/12/04 02:10 AM

I would NOT recomend that calibre on anything bigger than fallow or chital or pigs.
Good calibre however definately not a NT buff calibre.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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4seventy
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #21860 - 07/12/04 11:16 AM

In reply to:

Good calibre however definately not a NT buff calibre.


I totally agree.

Nitro,
It could be done, under ideal circumstances.
Professional backup with a heavy cal rifle would be paramount and the animal would have to present a perfect position for the shot.
The hunter would need to understand that he may never get a chance at an animal in the perfect position and that there is a very real chance that even if he does, the PH will most likely have to shoot the animal as well.

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mickey
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: 4seventy]
      #21870 - 07/12/04 01:52 PM

I disagree. I think, that in the hands of good shooter, it would be adequate. I have never shot a Buffalo with one but I have shot a couple with a .303 and .308. I have shot an Alaskan Moose with my 1903 with no problems. The penitration with the long bullet is outstanding and should be fine.

As with all smaller calibers, shot placement is more critical but it is always critical anyway.

There is nothing wrong with hunting with an older caliber.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mickey]
      #21872 - 07/12/04 02:43 PM

I will elaborate a little more on the details.

He has already shot many buffalo with a .270, from his accounts twenty to thirty buffalo and not from the back of a Landcruiser either. Knows their anatomy well.

Wanted to shoot a lion and buffalo (and a elephant) with the .270 but wasn't permitted in Zimbabwe but shot everything else with it including eland.



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4seventy
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mickey]
      #21880 - 07/12/04 04:33 PM


In reply to:

I disagree. I think, that in the hands of good shooter, it would be adequate.



Mick,
Not sure what you're disagreeing with.

To answer the original question which was..

Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for water buffalo?

No one in their right mind would recommend the 6.5 x 54 as being "fully up to the task" for asian buffalo hunting in all conditions.
Sure it can kill buffalo and so can plenty of other small cartridges.
If by "adequate" you mean "capable of", well yeah it is.
On the other hand if by "adequate" you mean that it is "fully sufficient", sorry but I don't think so.

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mickey
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: 4seventy]
      #21881 - 07/12/04 04:43 PM

4seventy

Symantics. To me you are describing appropriate. To me adequate means 'will it work most of the time'.

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Mick

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4seventy
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mickey]
      #21882 - 07/12/04 05:04 PM

In reply to:

To me adequate means 'will it work most of the time'.



I've had a few clients who had rifles like that (work most of the time) and I didn't think those guns were really "adequate" for much of anything!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: 4seventy]
      #21884 - 07/12/04 07:14 PM

Not a good choice of words - "adequate".

Perhaps should have been "adequate in the hands of a good shot in reasonable circumstances".



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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mickey]
      #21887 - 07/12/04 09:57 PM

Only a fool would consider himself well armed if he was hunting water buffalo with a 6.5 X 54!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------
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Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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mickey
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #21892 - 08/12/04 02:38 AM

ALAN_MCKENZIE

I think you need more experiance with the 6.5 and long, heavy for caliber bullets. The penitration will astound you.

If I had a choice between going Buff hunting with a 375 or a 6.5 I would take the 375. A no brainer.

If I could only take the 6.5 or not go hunting we are on our way. I have confidence, from past experiance, that it can do the job.

Adequately.

4seventy

My is truck is 'adequate' under your definition. It also works, 'most of the time'.


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4seventy
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #21923 - 08/12/04 09:45 AM

In reply to:

Perhaps should have been "adequate in the hands of a good shot in reasonable circumstances".



Add to the above, "with ADEQUATE backup" and the answer would be sure, go for it!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mickey]
      #21924 - 08/12/04 09:50 AM

I think the experience of shooting 2o to 30 buffalo with a .270 may account for something in terms of experience. "A fool" who has done it 20 or 30 times ? Who else here can say they have shot 30 buffalo?

I'm sure lots of cape buffalo could be taken with medium sized calibres if legally permissable. The main problem would be sorting out the chaff from the grain when it came to whom could actually do it.


***

My own preference is I would take my .375 or .450 - why not?



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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mickey]
      #21942 - 08/12/04 01:24 PM

I've owned and used a 6.5 X 55 carl G for better than 20 years.
I know what it is capable of.
I shot a rougue buff 30 years ago with a 243 using 85gn bthp projectiles.
Mind you I shot it from a vehicle so had plenty of protection just in case things went wrong.

Buff have been shot with 22rimfires,22hornets ,222rem,243,ect ect

Therefor in your opinion MICKEY the above are suitable for Aussie buff.

JOHN,the recomended mimimum weight & calibre for buff is 375 cal and 250 gn projectiles.
A 270 falls a long way short of that.

I would like to see your mate out on the flood plain,no backup with a badly shot buff on the prod,armed with his trusty 270 buffalo rifle.
The dingo's would probably clean up what was left.

I've shot 15 buff,hundreds of scrub bulls,100's of tons of donkey ,horse,camel,goats ect ect.

YOUR QUESTION SHOULD HAVE BEEN:-
IS A 6.5 X 54 considered suitable for water buffalo ?

" NO IT IS NOT"


--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

Edited by ALAN_MCKENZIE (08/12/04 01:49 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #21944 - 08/12/04 01:51 PM

In reply to:

JOHN,the recomended mimimum weight & calibre for buff is 375 cal and 250 gn projectiles.
A 270 falls a long way short of that.
I would like to see your mate out on the flood plain,no backup with a badly shot buff on the prod,armed with his trusty 270 buffalo rifle.
The dingo's would probably clean up what was left.




As I said before, 20 to 30 buffalo to date to his .270. Granted these were the good old days when you might be lucky and told "to shoot anything that moves in the back paddock" (read many hundreds of square kilometres).

On the flood plains.

No back-up.

No dingoes required.

Nowadays the outfitters make the 'recommendation' which is fine by me.

I would have thought 160 gr projectiles in a 6.5mm would have performance above a .270 .



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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #21946 - 08/12/04 01:58 PM

John,you asked a question.

You got my answer !
Robert Ruark said it all :-

:USE ENOUGH GUN "

--------------------
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Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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mickey
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #21953 - 08/12/04 03:51 PM

In reply to:

I shot a rougue buff 30 years ago with a 243 using 85gn bthp projectiles.
Mind you I shot it from a vehicle so had plenty of protection just in case things went wrong.

Buff have been shot with 22rimfires,22hornets ,222rem,243,ect ect
Therefor in your opinion MICKEY the above are suitable for Aussie buff.




Sorry? I thought we were talking about a 6.5 with a 160 grain roundnose? Have you had a problem with them in your Swede? I have found them to be capable of penitrating a Moose end to end. The 6.5x54 was quite popular in Alaska and N. Canada for Polar Bear.

--------------------
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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mickey]
      #21959 - 08/12/04 09:01 PM

Micky,the longer this thread goes along,the more is being written in to it.
Where did the 160 gn projectiles come into the original question.

Have you ever hunted water buffalo and if the answer is YES then I'll bet it was'nt with a 6.5 x 54.

The only reason I mentioned shooting a buff with a 243 was to emphersize that it can be done HOWEVER I would not recomend it as a buff rifle like you are with a 6.5x54.

Forest Gump said it all:-


STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES !!

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

Edited by ALAN_MCKENZIE (08/12/04 11:12 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #21963 - 08/12/04 10:19 PM

Well we are talking about a 6.5x54mm with a bullet weight range of from 85 grns to 160 grns. Of course the 160 gr bullet would be relevant.

The original post was started as a discussion topic. For discussion. It can go where it will. This is no right or wrong answers. I was never looking for a definitive answer.

I am sure my friend can use a 6.5x54mm adequately on buffalo given the right placement opportunity. If this does not occur and a shot can't be taken, his loss. 20 to 30 buffalos with a .270 isn't a bad base to work upon.

Whether it is an 'adequate' rifle for all situations and for all hunters is also almost certainly NO. As said I myself would choose a .375 or .450 probably at least for my first 10 or more buffalos .



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Marrakai
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #23482 - 05/01/05 12:10 AM

As one who has hunted buffalo with the 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer, both successfully and unsuccessfully, I must point out that the 6.5x54 is a wonderful killer and always out-performs its terminal ballistics on game with the 160-grainer, however I concur that the cartridge has NO margin for error on buff and therefore cannot be recommended.

Hit in a vital spot, the biggest bull will soon topple, however many years ago, a young bull which failed to drop to the shot was tracked for about 2 kms till the blood-trail ran out, and another km or so till his tracks met up with the rest of the herd. No doubt he's still wandering around out there somewhere. There was a bit of long grass, maybe the bullet deflected slightly, but I'm making excuses....

Nowadays, I prefer to hit 'em fairly hard!

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tunofun
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: Marrakai]
      #31180 - 15/05/05 11:52 AM

I am jumping into this post a little late it seems, but I will post none-the-less.
I have a REM 700 that was a .284WIN that is away getting a new barrel for it, a 6.5/284. The idea behind it is to be able to really reach out and touch pigs over the floodplains (and get back into the fly shoot at the range). I had thought that if a buffalo presented itself would I shoot it with this cartridge? I don't think that I would as I could not guarantee it would be mortally wounded if a typical shot was made on the chest or shoulders. However, a shot placed to the neck or spine would certainly do the job and allow a finisher if required. Even though this rifle will (hopefully) be a less than 0.5 MOA rifle, would you trust it enough over 400+ meters to hit a large live target well? Pigs will be no probs but a buff? I don't know...

Anybody have experiences with spine shooting a buffalo?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: tunofun]
      #31195 - 15/05/05 03:13 PM

Marrakai and tunoffun

Thanks for your comments.

Marrakai - I knew you had used your 6.5 on buffalo and it was good to hear your experiences and thoughts. Also now why you like your .577, .470 or .400.

I think my original question should not have stated "adequate" but instead "capable". Of course it is capable but is far from ideal. Hopefully we will be able to report back our positive experiences and stories in the near future.



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mickey
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #31211 - 15/05/05 07:57 PM

In reply to:

I think my original question should not have stated "adequate" but instead "capable". Of course it is capable but is far from ideal. Hopefully we will be able to report back our positive experiences and stories in the near future.



Shoot, negative experiances have value also.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #31327 - 17/05/05 07:00 PM

NitroX,

I hate to say it but IMHO, using a 6.5 x 54 on Water Buffalo is irresponsible
and disrepectful to the game. I also think it's irresponsible.

Yes it can kill them, yes it has the penetration but it doesn't have any shock value.
If it's wounded and gets away .......

Of course the160 gr bullet would be relevant." I have seen Buff shot with 6.5's
but by someone who has shot thousands. All were close in, head shots behind the ear
on undisturbed smaller buffalo.

Even if someone has shot 30 with a .270, it doesn't mean we then recommend the next smallest
calibre - where does it stop.

Even contemplating it makes me cringe and I can't think of a RESPONSIBLE PH in this'
country that I know that would take a client out with a 6.5 on Buff, regardless of what he is
using as back up.

Just my HO but one I feel strongly about.

500 Nitro

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #31346 - 18/05/05 12:39 AM

500grains

Hopefully we won't be using a "PH" as it is intended to hunt self-guided.

I'm not doing it, a friend wishes to do so.

As he has done it enough times with a .270 I don't see a problem.

Have to still book this hunt.

--------------------
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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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