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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #31382 - 18/05/05 07:56 AM


NitroX,

I realise it is your friend who wishes to use a 6.5 and not you..
Just because he has done it enough times with a .270, doesn't mean
the next one is the same as the previous 30.

Also, the difference between a BIG 1 Ton, 18 year old Monolith bristling
with muscles is huge compared with and a 10 year old Buff still to develop
that big neck and shoulder area.

Self-guided - can be fun but I hope you have plenty of back up and
don't lose the game.

Anyway, have a good hunt - when you book it.


500 Nitro

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #31428 - 18/05/05 10:18 PM

John ,allow me to register my dissapointment that you condone your mate using a 6.5 on buff ..
That is exactly the sort of thing that brings ethical hunters into disrepute.

Alan McKenzie
-------------

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #31441 - 19/05/05 01:20 AM

We will just have to let the photos and maybe video tell the story.

If I don't get my arse into gear and book the place all this will just be hot air.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? *DELETED* [Re: NitroX]
      #31510 - 19/05/05 05:54 PM

Post deleted by ALAN_MCKENZIE

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #31518 - 19/05/05 06:23 PM

My opinion has never changed. If someone asks me I say "most people recommend a .375 or more".

However whom I am I to demand a guy who has shot thirty times more water buff than I, does what I say! People can make their own choices. I don't have an problem with that. In fact if he said he wanted to hunt cape buffalo with one too, if legal, I wouldn't care either.

Please give it a rest. I read your opinion already on an earlier post or two. Thanks.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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The_Professor
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #31666 - 21/05/05 05:11 PM

Just a different thought on this one!

I have a wonderful 375 Weatherby on a Ruger #1 it is a 'very big' game rifle. I have used in on Water Buff once ( I know many of you do not condone single shots for DG but that is another story).

Given where I live, my access to Buff hunting and the cost, I will probably be able to justify one or two more Water Buff and perhaps a couple of Cape Buff in the rest of my life as a hunter. Given I'm pushing 50!.

I would dearly love a double. I can afford one, but I can't justify one to myself. My 375 has only fired one shot in 'anger'. I've tried it on big NT pigs and it is not efficient. 300 grain Woodlies go straight through without expanding. My 7mm Weatherby Ruger #1 is much more efficient on pigs and in reality my 30-06 bolt action is perfect.

My point is, this is a forum especially for those interested in BIG RIFLES, in the modern era we have so little opportunity to use them for what they were really designed, it seems kind of a sad waste to me to have the opportunity to hunt a big dangerous beast and then not take that rare chance to use a big rifle.

Regards,
The Professor.

PS. Anyone who has read my comments on bow hunting DG may find this idea strange. I'm sure you're right, these things are never simple or we would not enjoy the discussion.!

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mickey
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: The_Professor]
      #31725 - 22/05/05 01:37 PM

I have shot Warthogs with a .577 2 3/4, Kangaroos and Goats with a 577/450 and a 470NE and balloons with an 8 Bore. Springbuck with a 9.3x74R and Blacktail Deer with a 404 Jeffery. Waiting until the right animal comes along to shoot a favourite rifle is waisting time.

In reply to:

I would dearly love a double. I can afford one, but I can't justify one to myself.



Get the Double, shoot 'Roos, Pigs, Deer, Goats, Foxes etc with it. Have fun, enjoy the rifle for what it is and hope a rich relative dies so you can go to Africa and hunt elephant.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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ORION
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Reged: 25/01/03
Posts: 58
Loc: SSouth Australia
Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mickey]
      #32092 - 26/05/05 11:20 PM

Hi boys,
interesting reading.Nitro

ITS TIME

Waihi
Orion

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ORION
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Reged: 25/01/03
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Loc: SSouth Australia
Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ORION]
      #38663 - 03/10/05 09:24 PM

Hi boys

YES YES its adequate.
As soon as John gets my pictures,he can put them up.
Waihi
Orion

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ORION]
      #38670 - 03/10/05 11:08 PM


I'll can't wait for the story and photos.

500 Nitro

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mlg
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Reged: 19/03/05
Posts: 85
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39860 - 27/10/05 12:00 PM

There is another aspect we as hunters need to consider re shooting Buff with light calibers - if blokes are going to start using lightweight calibers on buff and an increase of wounded buff become apparent (particularly if innocent locals/tourists etc get hurt as a result) it will only be a matter of time before we give the Government and animal activists reason to stop us hunting in the Northern Territory. We could (rightly) be branded as irresponsible and lousy shots. Hasn,t that already been mentioned with regard to croc hunting by a NT Minister? Think about it. Lets not give them any ammo (sic)!

Also I think that common sense must prevail with regards to caliber choice. Sure a 6.5x54/ 308/270 may get the job done but why would you, when for about 850 bucks a new Ruger in 338 Win Mag can be had and will do a much better job.

Also this brings to mind an article I read about Walter D.M. Bell who made shooting DG with light calibers so popular. The article pointed out that he was an absolute marksman and knew Elephant anatomy extremely well so he got away with shooting DG with 7x57s etc. But subsequently a lot hunters have been killed/wounded by trying the same after reading his books. Not all of us are in the same league as he was(certainly not me).

The next thing we will have fellas trying to shoot them with 243s and 223s, wsms, 204 Rugers and God knows what else. I think these forums could be put to good use to discourage the small caliber/big dick syndrome that exists amongst some .

Somone else rightly quoted Robert Ruark "USE ENOUGH GUN"

For me anyway, that would start with a 338win mag - the absolute minimum !!



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500Nitro
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mlg]
      #39871 - 27/10/05 02:58 PM


mlg

Re "I think these forums could be put to good use to discourage
the small caliber/big dick syndrome that exists amongst some."

I think alot of us tried but the people concerned must have had
a good dose of Viagra !!!

As long as it made them feel good...........


500 Nitro

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mlg]
      #39917 - 28/10/05 11:37 AM

MLG,I agree with you 100%.

500, I'm sure you are right about the Viagara.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #39930 - 28/10/05 01:37 PM

mlg, 500Nitro, and Alan McKenzie,

Count me in with your opinions.

Although I have never seen a water buffalo, much less shot one, I think the quarry is worthy of the hunter's best effort. I see nothing noble about trying to solve the riddle of, "What is the least force I can apply to achieve a death blow on this innocent critter I decided to shoot today?" If the object is to kill, then the ethical hunter should use a good margin of force over and above what is calculated as the minimum required. Then he can dispatch the game quickly and efficiently without needless suffering.

That's my ethics, and I don't think a 6.5x55 is proper for buffalo. Sure as hell you can kill one with it. That's not what it's all about IMO.

They slaughter beef and hogs with .22RF by putting the muzzle right behind the base of the skull (good shot placement). That doesn't mean you should hunt feral hogs or feral bovines with a .22RF does it? Yes it will kill. Yes you can argue that shot placement is the skill of the sport. NO THAT'S NOT AN ETHICAL HUNT BY MY STANDARDS.

That's my opinion. Not meant to offend.

Curl

P.S.

Twenty years ago I hunted Elk with a .30-06. In 1985 I got a shot at a bull, but the shot was a little off. The bull was well wounded, but still on the move. We tracked the blood for a mile or more. There were places where the bull had stopped and left a puddle of blood three feet in diameter in white snow. Finally the blood trail disappeared, and the elk was lost. I felt so low that I couldn't hunt for two days.

The next season I hunted (1987) I used a .375 H&H Mag. loaded with 235 grain Speer bonded bullets that were screaming! I got a shot at a nice 6x6 bull at 320 yards, and he is mine.

I didn't intentionally hunt with a light gun, and .30-06 is considered a good choice for elk. In my opinion it is a bit light. Elk are tough as hell. They are noble creatures and deserve more.

MHO
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (28/10/05 01:45 PM)

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: CptCurl]
      #39933 - 28/10/05 01:46 PM

CptCurl,

Re Although I have never seen a water buffalo, much less shot one"

You have other experience that is valued.

But you are right all the same re the ethics.

Alan - maybe if they keep doingit long enough
the Viagra will help when they have to run like hell.

A friend of mine, Peter, had to stop a Charging Scrub Bull
that an OS client had shot multiple times with a 300 Win Mag.

If Peter hadn't stopped it, it would have flattened the client.

500 Nitro

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39994 - 29/10/05 06:32 AM

500Nitro,

Do you mean I shouldn't come down to Oz and hunt buffs with my .280NE?



Damn, what a disappointment!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500Nitro
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: CptCurl]
      #40003 - 29/10/05 09:05 AM

CptCurl,


Of course, as long as you bring and take your Viagra !!!


500 Nitro

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #40045 - 29/10/05 11:36 PM

I always find the word "ethics" interesting in its theoretical application to hunting.

I much prefer the word "sporting" for hunting.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40049 - 30/10/05 12:05 AM

Nitro,

From Dictionary.com

eth·ic
n.

1. (a) A set of principles of right conduct.
(b) A theory or a system of moral values: “An ethic of service is at war with a craving for gain” (Gregg Easterbrook).

2. ethics (used with a sing. verb) The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy.

3. ethics (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a profession: medical ethics.

sport·ing
adj.

1. Used in or appropriate for sports: sporting goods.

2. Characterized by sportsmanship.

3. Of or associated with gambling.

The appropriate definition under "sporting" would be the second one, "Characterized by sportsmanship."

sports·man·ship
n.

1. The fact or practice of participating in sports or a sport.

2. Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.

Here the second definition seems to apply. That definition is clearly predicated on values or moral philosophy; hence, ethics.

It comes down to two aspects: (1) what is perceived by the collective hunting community as appropriate, and (2) what standards the individual hunter holds himself to.

I'm not posting this to be contentious. I just want to explain my thoughts in using the term "ethical" in my earlier post. Any way you analyze it, values and philosophy are the touchstones, whether it be characterized "ethics" or "sportsmanship".

Best regards,

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40050 - 30/10/05 12:16 AM

To expound a bit further on my earlier post, the value or philosophy I stated is this:

"If the object is to kill, then the ethical hunter should use a good margin of force over and above what is calculated as the minimum required. Then he can dispatch the game quickly and efficiently without needless suffering."

It seems to me the debate should be first, whether this is a good standard of sportsmanship to which the individual hunter should adhere; and if so, second, whether a 6.5x54 provides that margin of power.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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mlg
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: CptCurl]
      #40357 - 01/11/05 10:24 PM

Cpt Curl

Well said.

I await with bated breath to see how the forum members who hunt buff with the 6.5x54 can justify that caliber as having a suitable "margin of power" on that animal.

Edited by mlg (01/11/05 10:27 PM)

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Marty
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mlg]
      #40359 - 01/11/05 11:52 PM

Yeah OK.

I'll point out the Gorrila in the room, because this BS has gone on long enough.

Shifty....or Nitro needs to clarify what went on here with "The Buff and the 6.5". At least on these forums. Yes! I have heard of people shooting them with 22/250's and the like, but that is always put down to the dickhead minority.

There are stories going round Darwin, the Top End and various PH's as to what happened on this particular hunt. NONE of these stories has been clarified by ANY post on NitroXpress. Period.

Either post the photos and clear the air....... or shut up and admit that an animal was arse shot by an inappropriate calibre by a hunter who would not take that calibre out after Buff again. Granted, the hunter had his reasons for using this rifle. But in the final analysis and as the members of this forum are my jury, I see no legitimate reason for the use of this calibre over what else was available.

We have had the promise of photos and story for some time now. Nothing has been forthcoming.

Q1. Photo of the Buff please?

Q2. How many shots did it take? And where was it hit?

Q3. Was the PH happy with the final outcome?

Q4. Would the hunter use this calibre again, and would he recommend it to other hunters?

Like I say, Darwin is a small town. The hunting community is smaller. Stories have been circulating for a month or more. This site has done nothing to circumvent them. Give us the story or be prepared for someone elses version.

--------------------
__________________________________

Edited by Marty (02/11/05 12:01 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: Marty]
      #40362 - 02/11/05 12:12 AM

In reply to:

Like I say, Darwin is a small town. The hunting community is smaller. Stories have been circulating for a month or more. This site has done nothing to circumvent them. Give us the story or be prepared for someone elses version.





Gee what a hotbed of intrigue and rumour!

Marty, can you PM me the stories, as they sound very interesting.


I will break my plan to let Martin tell the story by adding the following couple of sentences.

I haven't had time to work on the story or the photos or much else.

While I was not present at the 6.5mm kills on buffalo as I understand it, both were shot well broadside in the chest. One ran away and the PH insisted follow-up shots be fired. Which were into the rear of the buffalo and as Orion expected had no effect. The other was also shot with follow-up shots as again the PH insisted. Don't remember the details. After a while both buffalo succumbed to the initial well placed shots and died well.

Mostly a non event. I should let it drag out more so the rumours really reach mammoth proportions.

Hopefully Orion can reveal more in an entertaining way and I hope he forgives me stealing his thunder.

Anyway it is 11:40 PM and I have another couple of hours of fungicide spraying (preventative) to get in tonight before the rain and risk of mildew happens tommorrow in my vineyards. Sometimes you got to spend time where it is needed.


PS "Orion", I emailed you. I have your skulls in my sheds which Graham included with mine to the freight company. I will bring them down when I can, otherwise if you want them earlier, a trip to the Barossa might be needed. If so you can have a look at my NEW scrub bull horns and skull.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40363 - 02/11/05 12:17 AM

Interesting on the cow buffalo cull, when chatting to a professional bull catcher when he saw the "massive" 9.3x74R rounds he thought they were huge and said "they should only take one shot with those!"

I initially told him my Tikka double was a .410 shotgun but he immediately looked at my "culling" belt (20 rounds) (hey it actually got some use!) so was way too smart to fall for it.

I have found all big animals not brain or neck spine shot take a little while to die not matter what calibre is used.

George, the guide, as his own rifles were in NZ, not having a licence in Aust yet, used the station .303 no 1 Mk III full wood rifle as his back up rifle. It came in handy to finish off downed beasts with a shot to the brain and also in shooting at the brumbies. The only problem was we both shot the same brumby with the first shot each.


I do prefer a .375 (or a similar 9.3 mm) on buffalo myself and most guides insist on this sort of cartridge for their clients.

I may check back in when I get back in a couple of hours.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mlg
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Reged: 19/03/05
Posts: 85
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40364 - 02/11/05 12:39 AM

"While I was not present at the 6.5mm kills on buffalo as I understand it, both were shot well broadside in the chest. One ran away and the PH insisted follow-up shots be fired. Which were into the rear of the buffalo and as Orion expected had no effect. The other was also shot with follow-up shots as again the PH insisted"

Hmmmm....... wonder if I dare put my foot in murky water and ask if we think what the results would have been for identically placed shots had the caliber been a :-

1. 9.3x62 or 9.3x74
2. 375 h&h
3. 416
4. 458win mag or Lott and above etc



Any thoughts??

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