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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Dresden
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Reged: 19/06/12
Posts: 20
Loc: Minnesota, USA
Powder Temperature debate
      #217614 - 05/10/12 12:12 AM

Hi,
i have a good friend who collects and shoots express rifles, I am a large bore shooter. We were discussing loads for the 416 Ruger in comparison to the 404 Jeffreys. He brought up the point about powder temperature problem with express rifles. The problem is always expressed as the initial bringing of munitions to the field by a hunter, he pointed out the problem was the storage and shipping of the munitions in the constant higher temperatures. I thought I would share this as I never have seen this discussed before.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26575
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: Dresden]
      #217615 - 05/10/12 12:26 AM

Use the Extreme powders made by ADI in Australia - you will know them by the Hodgdon name and the word "Extreme" on the can/bottle label. They are VERY stable in hot and cold temperatures and give virtually the same velcotiies and pressures no matter the temp.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Dresden
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Reged: 19/06/12
Posts: 20
Loc: Minnesota, USA
Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: DarylS]
      #217646 - 05/10/12 12:16 PM

Thanks for the comment, I am aware of that, I have seen this battered around and most people seem to think the problem is when carrying the ammo while hunting, not the previous conditions of shipping and storage. My ammo is stored in a cool cellar, and hunting is a cold weather proposition like you fellows in Canada experience, I live a bit South of Ontario.

Dresden

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: Dresden]
      #217664 - 06/10/12 12:41 AM

Yes - Minnesnowta.
My ammo is stored in the shop or lockup - 67F at most.
I don't shoot factory except for RF. If I loaded for an express rifle, it would be with Extreme powders, not anything susceptable to heat caused pressure excursions like most of the old Kynoch factory ammo.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: DarylS]
      #217674 - 06/10/12 05:41 AM

I never had problems with ammo by hunting under very low temperature . In hot climate area is the situation a little bit different . My allround cartridge in Africa is the 460 WM and shooting factory ammo is a problem by very high temperature . A reason for "tropical loads" , reduced loads , by reloading this cartridge or another express cartridges . To select a powder relating to the climate make imho no sense . Fast or low burning you can have pressure peak's .

The storage in Africa is not the problem but to carry the ammunition in the sun . The reason why i dont use open ammo belts . I take my cartridges in a pocket on my belt .

Edited by grandveneur (06/10/12 05:45 AM)

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grandveneur
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Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: grandveneur]
      #217677 - 06/10/12 06:52 AM

Another point ! What is a "extreme" powder , especialy from Hodgdon ? This firma is a ballistic laboratory and a retailer , no a producer of powder . The similitary of a lot of Hodgdon powders with another powders is remarkable . A reason why all modern powders are "extreme" !

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DarylS
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Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: grandveneur]
      #217679 - 06/10/12 07:14 AM

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, but is it based upon experience with those powders or merely guess work?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1298
Loc: France / Germany
Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: DarylS]
      #217682 - 06/10/12 08:00 AM

Hodgdon powders are very good powders , no question ! Hodgdon take the best that it can find by a lot of producer like Dupont , Olin , Bofors for example . It's possible to find about the same powder by Norma or Rottweil for example .

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4930
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Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: grandveneur]
      #217684 - 06/10/12 08:37 AM

Quote:

Hodgdon powders are very good powders , no question ! Hodgdon take the best that it can find by a lot of producer like Dupont , Olin , Bofors for example . It's possible to find about the same powder by Norma or Rottweil for example .



The Extreme powders are made by ADI, now Thales, in Australia and are designed to not be temperature sensitve. These powders have been tested and the claims by ADI proven by others such as the US and Australian militaries.

I forget how cold they can get before their burn rate is effected but can be used any place on earth. From memory they are stable to 70C before burn rate is affected and then still less then other powders.

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Dresden
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Reged: 19/06/12
Posts: 20
Loc: Minnesota, USA
Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: grandveneur]
      #217767 - 09/10/12 02:30 AM

Thanks for the comment, I never have hunted where the sun would heat my cartridges, i will share your comment with my friend, where I live hunting season is next month.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26575
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: Dresden]
      #217772 - 09/10/12 04:37 AM

Now, their Extreme Powders run the gammut from H4198 (not the same as IMR4198) on the fast end of rifle powders, possibly to Retumbo now on the slow end.

AS30 - Clays
AS50 - International
AP70 - Universal
AR2205 - H4227
AR2207 - H4198
Benchmark 1 - not sold by Hodgdon
AR2219 - H322
Benchmark 2 - Benchmark
AR2206H - H4895 Note the H designation on 2206, this is new down here.
AR2208 - Varget
AR2209 - H4350
AR2213SC - H4831SC SC = short cut
AR2225 - Retumbo
AR2218 - H50BMG (Pretty sure about that one but not 100%)

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: DarylS]
      #217787 - 09/10/12 03:46 PM

I see no reason for debate, the Extreme powders work great.
No worries, no challenge.






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: tinker]
      #217788 - 09/10/12 03:58 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Interesting, no doubt!

Daryl, there is also;
ADI AR-2217 = Hogdon H-1000.

The only reason I mention this, is I bought a Kg of it recently, to shoot thru my .338 Lapua.

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: Homer]
      #217807 - 10/10/12 07:31 AM

The stabilizers in modern powders do deteriorate when subjected to heat.

But it takes at least 1,5-4 year (depending on the concentrate of NG) in 65 degree celcius to get it to a point where it start to effect the powder.

So its possible, but it will be a wery long and sweaty hunt.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26575
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: 450_366]
      #217808 - 10/10/12 08:27 AM

Quote:

The stabilizers in modern powders do deteriorate when subjected to heat.

But it takes at least 1,5-4 year (depending on the concentrate of NG) in 65 degree celcius to get it to a point where it start to effect the powder.

So its possible, but it will be a wery long and sweaty hunt.



450_366?

What about powders without nitroglycerin, ie: the single base stick powders made from nitrocellulose only? The double base powders are made from nitrocellulose plus nitroglycerine in varying amounts, I believe.

None of the ball or spherical powders sold by Hodgon are listed as being "Extreme". My own findings are that in -20C temps, rounds from 7X57 through '06 and .375's, when using ball or spherical powders, you can expect up to 150fps reduction is speed from a load developed in 70F temps. Then again, using ball powder, I noticed a drop of a good 175fps in my .218Bee Ruger #1 when tested at -20C (about -5F). Perhaps ctg. size does not matter as much as ctg. used. In 80F temps, it was an absolute max. load.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: DarylS]
      #217810 - 10/10/12 09:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The stabilizers in modern powders do deteriorate when subjected to heat.

But it takes at least 1,5-4 year (depending on the concentrate of NG) in 65 degree celcius to get it to a point where it start to effect the powder.

So its possible, but it will be a wery long and sweaty hunt.



450_366?

What about powders without nitroglycerin, ie: the single base stick powders made from nitrocellulose only? The double base powders are made from nitrocellulose plus nitroglycerine in varying amounts, I believe.

None of the ball or spherical powders sold by Hodgon are listed as being "Extreme". My own findings are that in -20C temps, rounds from 7X57 through '06 and .375's, when using ball or spherical powders, you can expect up to 150fps reduction is speed from a load developed in 70F temps. Then again, using ball powder, I noticed a drop of a good 175fps in my .218Bee Ruger #1 when tested at -20C (about -5F). Perhaps ctg. size does not matter as much as ctg. used. In 80F temps, it was an absolute max. load.



SB powders would land at about 2,5-3 years time, but thats aging of the powder.

I don think its if its a SB or DB powder thats the problem. A SB powder is less vulnerable to lower temeratures than the DB powders, a DB can actually produce higher pressures in extreme low temperature.

But all are affected by heat as the flame travels faster in higher temperatures. But if i remember right then about 1m/s and 1MPa to every degree celcius is a normal diffence.

So if you developed the load with -20c components and carried it in a pocket that say was 40c, it would add around 60ms and 60Mpa on the load.

Nevertheless, i dont think the pockets are hotter then the blued barrels if its used in hot climate anyway.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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albertan
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Reged: 13/06/06
Posts: 432
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: 450_366]
      #217950 - 14/10/12 12:58 PM

The Ramshot powders are all ball or spherical powders. While they all require a magnum primer for a good initial kick in the pants, they are at least as good as the Hodgdon Extreme powders and much, much cleaner burning. The double based Vihta Vuori (the 500 series)are up there as well as steady performance in temperature extremes. Reloder 15 is a good powder for use in temperature extremes. It was not always, but Uncle Sam insisted, and got his way. It is the powder used in all 7.62 NATO ammunition used by the United States military. It is good stuff. It is the only powder so far listed that works well with low pressure rounds like a Nitro Express round. It is Federal factory fill in their Nitro Express ammunition.

The old IMR series of powders still works very well at the lower pressures such as the 30-40 Krag, the 7x57 (older guns), and of course the .416 Rigby. With 400 grain bullets, IMR 4831 is tough to beat in this one. Many of these newer wonder powders do very poorly below 50,000 psi. Not so with the old IMR stuff. One look at the Speer manual in the .280 Remington spells this out. The Hodgdon and the slower Reloder series of powders don't do well below 50,000 psi and there are only 2 grains separating the top from the bottom load. My own shooting has verified this to be true whilst working up loads and noticing large quantities of unburned powder.

If your gun only shoots an IMR powder well you can debur your primer flash hole; and be fastidious. And use Federal primers. They seem less affected by temperature than other brands. This cuts the temperature affected velocity significantly. I use all brands of primers and have found that they all work well, but the Federals are less affected by temperature than other brands. I have seen this in print and verified this out for myself. It is not because they are the hottest. They are not, Winchester holds that title in the magnum and non-magnum large rifle category. CCI 450's and Remington 7 1\2's in the small rifle category.

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: albertan]
      #217958 - 14/10/12 08:50 PM

Imho , the name "Extreme" is a good marketing !

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: grandveneur]
      #217964 - 15/10/12 02:56 AM

albertan - I do beg to disgree with some of what you say. Try to use IMR4895 in sub 30,000psi loads and see what happens. I use H4895 in my .450 Alaskan at well under 30,000psi - the load that is listed as 24,000psi in a .45/70 case which holds some 27gr. less powder than the .450's case. That powder burns very well in my 97gr. case, quite cleanly & with wondeful accuracy & good speed - over 1,500fps with 500gr. Hodgdon even recommends that powder down to 50% of normal load density as being the best of their powder lineup for that purpose - safe reduced loads. In this stead, for me, it's better than any of the IMR's, including 3031, which used to be my favourtie in low pressure .45 loads - not any more.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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albertan
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Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: DarylS]
      #217992 - 15/10/12 08:19 PM

I too like and use H-4895 powder In a .223 Rem, a .308 Win, a .358 Win, and a 35 Whelen. With the exception of faster burning powders,I am sticking to my story with the 4350's, 4831's, etc. The story I told is backed by fact. Hodgdon is not the only game in town with regards to cold weather performance. The Ramshot powders are by far the cleanest burning powders on the market, the extreme powders are some of the worst. A spent case from a Ramshot load looks like it was flashed over a candle. It doesn't look shot. Cold weather stability does not always translate into high temperature stability. The newer generation of ball powders will eclipse the stick powders very soon. Play with the Hornady super performance stuff. A 165 in a 22 inch 30-06 going over 3000 fps and into an inch or so with factory fodder. And they are stable right across the temperature board. When these powders are unleashed, they will revolutionize reloading.

Daryl, where did you get pressure data for a .450 Alaskan? I too have obscure books on arcane calibres, but none have pressure data on this calibre.

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DarylS
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Re: Powder Temperature debate [Re: albertan]
      #218010 - 16/10/12 01:04 AM

The pressure data and load I mentioned was not for the .450 Alaskan - but was for a case possessing 27gr. LESS capacity (.45/70) - thus, the pressure would have been even lower in the .450 Alaskan. All supposition, extropolation, guesstimation - but quite logically correct. As I am shootin ghtis stuff in a model 71/76 Mauser, it had to be low pressure, ie: OK in a Trapdoor Springfield-type safe.

For some PSI pressure data (calculated on a Powley Computer) on the .450 Alaskan, see Jophn Kronfeld's artcile on the Harold Johnson round in Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges (Wolf Publishing)- which starts at 8mm and goes up. The pressures listed seem high, compared to actual pezio pressures generating similar velocities for the same bullets & bullet weights in .45/70 cases and .450 Marlin.

Much of the same ctg. data and articles & of course, many more rounds from .17 cal to .50 Alaskan. Big Bore includes a short article on the .60 Nitro. That's as big as they go.

I never spent the time to figure out my Powley Computer - don't even know where it is right now - literally unused too - might still be around here - somewhere, but haven't seen it's Drk. tan envelope for years.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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