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StephenCoker
.300 member


Reged: 01/12/11
Posts: 140
Loc: AR, United States of America
Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle
      #217218 - 26/09/12 08:18 AM

I’ve enjoyed many of your posts, so I thought I’d join in on the fun and start contributing. As an introduction, I’ll share my first double rifle and the origin of my lust for Scottish firearms. It’s an Edward Paton & Son .450 3 ¼” BPE hammer rifle. Barrels are 28” steel tubes, Henry rifled, and built by A&T who supplied many makers with early steel tubes. Rib is marked “Edward Paton & Son, London and Perth”. Non-rebounding back action locks with stalking safeties are signed by Joseph Brazier. In the picture of the lock work below you can also see the incorporation of the fly on the tumblers. Stock is straight with a metal grip rail. Running stag engraved on the bottom of the trigger guard and is hidden by the Jones underlever when the action is closed.

The sights are a bit unique, yet typical of express rifles. It has a very wide and deep “v” rear sight. This is paired to a front caterpillar on a very tall post. I absolutely love this sight arrangement and have duplicated it on my other rifles used for similar purposes. It’s very flexible in its use in the field. It allows for precision use at distance (150-200 yards) by holding the top of the front bead even with the top of the rear sight. Conversely, you can bury the bead in the bottom of the rear “v” and you’re dead on for 50 yards and closer. You may recall this sighting arrangement from an often duplicated picture in Greener’s “Development of the Gun”. I believe the chapter is on Express rifles. It shows how the sights can be arranged as I described against a Red Stag silhouette at various distances. I can attest that it works quite well. MikeRowe has witnessed me successfully waging war on rocks and ring steel plates out to 200 yards quite regularly. The stars have simply not aligned for me to have seen deer when I had this rifle in hand while out stalking. That really needs to be remedied!

It’s regulated for a charge of 120 grains behind a 310 grain projectile and is so marked. I was really excited to try paper-patched hard lead flat points dropped from one of MikeRowe’s best quality brass molds, but the darn thing absolutely loves the 300 grain Hornady jacketed RN. I guess I lucked out, but I do plan to work up a load of black powder and some bullets from MikeRowe’s mold in the future.

Like most Scottish guns and rifles this one absolutely comes alive in your hands. It’s highly dynamic. I’ve shot several Alexander Henry .450 3 ¼” hammer double rifles with a similar feel, but my Paton is a bit lighter in the barrels – probably because it doesn’t have the weight of a Henry’s gorgeously swamped rib. I’ve shot a 28 bore Dickson hammergun that I swear was possessed by some woodcock and quail slaying demon. I think this rifle may be of similar possession!
























--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

Edited by StephenCoker (27/09/12 01:32 AM)


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3526
Loc: Colorado
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: StephenCoker]
      #217221 - 26/09/12 11:48 AM

Aaahh...that's the stuff...

Very fine rifle you have there. Great photography too!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (26/09/12 11:49 AM)


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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #217222 - 26/09/12 12:14 PM

Very good show. A straighthand hammer jones .450 is right at the top of coveted guns. Very good indeed.

"The stars have simply not aligned for me to have seen deer when I had this rifle in hand while out stalking. That really needs to be remedied!"

I am tempted to invite you to come to Wyoming to see if we could catch a Pronghorn with it, but suspect I would develop a sceme in which you meet a un-timely demise and the rifle stays with me .... :):)

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

Edited by Caprivi (26/09/12 12:15 PM)


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MikeRowe
.333 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: Caprivi]
      #217224 - 26/09/12 12:28 PM

Having shot this rifle I can attest to the fact that it's a good one. I really like those rail grips on a straight stock. Makes it look very Scottish.

We do need to get the rifle used to shooting real bullets....


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: MikeRowe]
      #217230 - 26/09/12 01:32 PM

Beautiful rifle.
I love the straight grip double rifles, including my own.
Enjoy it!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5272
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #217245 - 26/09/12 09:45 PM

That is a superb rifle, and I am envious!

There is no better woods rifle than the .450BPE. I have two Henrys: one with hammers and one without. It's funny how they love to gobble up the Hornady 300 grain bullets. Pure accuracy with a well-made bullet. I'm an afficionado of paper-patched lead bullets, and I have the original mould with my hammerless Henry (which surely would work perfectly with the hammer gun), but so far I'm shooting the Hornadys like you. Sorry for that. Lazy I suppose.

Thanks for posting, and my warm welcome to our discussions.

BTW, Mike just made me a fine stab crimper for my hammerless .450, the only tool that was missing from the original set. I couldn't be more pleased.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #217249 - 27/09/12 12:44 AM

Interesting, I read 120gr. powder and 310gr. bullets.


According to Ross Seyfreid, Swiss comes closest to regulating to stamped numbers, but if it actually regulates with 110gr. of English Sporting powder, then perhaps 120gr. GOEX might work.

Here, I have to pay $20.00 per pound for GOEX and $40.00 for Swiss, hense, I don't shoot Swiss powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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aromakr
.375 member


Reged: 20/04/11
Posts: 849
Loc: Hamilton, Montana
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #217250 - 27/09/12 01:00 AM

Daryl:
Those prices are interesting. I haven't bought black powder in a number of years, but can remember buying two 25lb kegs of Dupont black one ffg and one fffg $25 each. Yes that was a few years ago, but at the same time Hodgen H4831 for $1.50 a pound.
Bob


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StephenCoker
.300 member


Reged: 01/12/11
Posts: 140
Loc: AR, United States of America
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: aromakr]
      #217252 - 27/09/12 01:55 AM

Caprivi,
LOL, that's tempting! I'd absolutely love to chase some pronghorns. Would you at least let me shoot one before you relieve me of my rifle?

CptCurl,
Thanks. Yes, I got to place my grubby paws on your stab crimper before Mike sent it out. I'm quite envious of it! Mike is extremely talented, and his ability to execute matches his eye for detail when it comes to exactly and precisely duplicating original case tools and accessories! Mike is a good friend and my gaffer/mentor as I work on some projects related to Fraser and other Scottish made rifles. Hopefully this won't go to his head!

Kiwi....I mean Mike,
Looks like we need to get busy on another .450 mold and some proper tools and accessories. The Paton really needs to be cased up correctly!

Daryl:
I've corrected my post to reflect the correct charge of 120 as it is stamped. Thanks for calling it to my attention. I am familiar with Ross's recommendations using blackpowder and have most of his writings on the subject over the years. I just need to find some time to get out there and get it regulated accordingly. Should make for a fun journey though!

--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.


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Caprivi
.375 member


Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: StephenCoker]
      #217253 - 27/09/12 02:07 AM

"Caprivi,
LOL, that's tempting! I'd absolutely love to chase some pronghorns. Would you at least let me shoot one before you relieve me of my rifle?"

Oh' of course you could.............
Trouble being on my end, I own nothing worthy to hunt with, compared to this Paton.
Any "hero" pictures would be odd, you and a glorious .450 and me with a silver and plastic 6.5mm

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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bouldersmith
.375 member


Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 609
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: Caprivi]
      #217258 - 27/09/12 03:32 AM

A lovely rifle. Typical Scottish quality. Must be a joy to carry.

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com


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StephenCoker
.300 member


Reged: 01/12/11
Posts: 140
Loc: AR, United States of America
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: Caprivi]
      #217261 - 27/09/12 04:37 AM

Well your choice in diameter of projectiles is certainly a noble one!

--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: StephenCoker]
      #217270 - 27/09/12 09:18 AM

Have fun with it, Steven - I most certainly would.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5272
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #217272 - 27/09/12 11:16 AM

Stephen,

You and Mike should come to Virginia for a shoot and/or a deer hunt. I think I could find a way to bust the game cherry on this fine rifle.

The last five white tails I have killed were with:
.300 double;
.500NE double;
.500BPE double;
.577BPE double; and
.450BPE double.

OK, the .300 has a 4x scope, but the shot was 265 yards. One shot on each of these kills.

There is a lot of good feeling in taking a nice game animal with a 19th century rifle with express sights.

Deer season will be here in November.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5272
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #217273 - 27/09/12 11:17 AM

P.S.

My biggest problem now is that I am torn between hunting with a .500BPE, a .450BPE, or a .303. I love them all.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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MikeRowe
.333 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #217274 - 27/09/12 11:36 AM

Curl

And I thought I had problems.

My heart bleeds for you, my friend. Truly, it does......


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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5272
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: MikeRowe]
      #217279 - 27/09/12 07:53 PM

Mike,

It's not easy. I do what I must. Thanks for your concern.

I think the .303 should be hunted this year . . . but which one?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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MikeRowe
.333 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #217286 - 28/09/12 01:23 AM

I have it easy here. The Watson .450 is like an only child, it goes with me every time.

However, some siblings are in the works (i.e. being restored), so that won't always be the case.

I may call you for advice when that monumental decision arrives.....


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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5272
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: MikeRowe]
      #217289 - 28/09/12 04:48 AM

Mike,

I am available to counsel any time. Just don't expect much in the way of results!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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StephenCoker
.300 member


Reged: 01/12/11
Posts: 140
Loc: AR, United States of America
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #217294 - 28/09/12 07:54 AM

Curl,

A trip to Virginia to take a deer with the Paton could be a whole lot of fun! Lord knows I've tried to do so here in the Ozarks with no luck. I believe MacIntosh referred to your dilemma as the "glorious annoyance of having to decide which gun to choose". My only double rifles at the moment include the aforementioned Paton and a Westley Richards "gold name" in .450 No.2 WR Express. I've got far more magazine rifles at the moment. I did manage to take a doe with my Lee Speed last year (pic below). I also found another picture of the Edward Paton to include in this thread: "Let the Dacron Fly"!





--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/12 09:25 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: StephenCoker]
      #217296 - 28/09/12 10:47 AM

That's a nice looking Lee Speed. Congrats on the doe. Great eating for sure.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #217298 - 28/09/12 11:50 AM

We would all like to say we feel bad for you Curl, like to, just can't......:):):)
Very good for you.

Stephen, love them Speed's as well. Very nice. I have thought one of them in the Timber after a Bull would be a swell thing.

"Well your choice in diameter of projectiles is certainly a noble one!" It is but a tarted up Tikka in swede chambering, cult-ish, but indeed silver and plastic. But i have a feeling there is a small Mauser project of Fraser-like appearance starting to formulate.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
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Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: Caprivi]
      #217329 - 29/09/12 12:11 AM

Oh, I feel badly for him - cooped up in that overpopulated area - he'd feel much better on a hunt and fish trip with me up here in God's country - even if it was only for upland birds, steelhead and salmon. Maybe next year.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #217330 - 29/09/12 12:36 AM

Quote:

Oh, I feel badly for him - cooped up in that overpopulated area - he'd feel much better on a hunt and fish trip with me up here in God's country - even if it was only for upland birds, steelhead and salmon. Maybe next year.




That sounds like a great plan.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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StephenCoker
.300 member


Reged: 01/12/11
Posts: 140
Loc: AR, United States of America
Re: Edward Paton & Son 450 BPE Hammer Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #238423 - 30/11/13 08:39 AM

I finally connected with the Paton. There have been many range sessions, many steel plates and targets have been struck, and many miles walked in the woods with the Paton in my hands. I was beginning to fear it was somehow cursed as the opportunity to take a whitetail never seemed to develop with the Paton in my hands. But as of last week, I can finally say that a Whitetail has been taken. I alway enjoy taking game with vintage guns, but this one was especially joyful given the wait.





--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

Edited by CptCurl (30/11/13 10:10 PM)


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