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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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RLI
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Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest?
      #215744 - 29/08/12 04:55 AM

Looking at a Sauer Hatari TD which comes in Left & right hand but only the "butterknife" bolt comes in left...........question..for fast repeat shots from this rifle or most 375H&H's, which is the better handling bolt? It may take a little bit of time to get used to a"butterknife" bolt but I am thinking the round bolt has more control?...............

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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gryphon
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: RLI]
      #215746 - 29/08/12 06:21 AM

I cannot see the value in a b/knife handle other than cosmetic.

Round is firm and sure every time,even with greasy fingers.

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Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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Tom30887
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: gryphon]
      #215749 - 29/08/12 07:29 AM

The extra 0.05 seconds difference won't matter. But I have heard plains game don't like butterknife style bolt handles and flee at the sight of them.

Tom

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xausa
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: RLI]
      #215751 - 29/08/12 07:34 AM

The butterknife bolt handle makes sense if you carry your rifle frequently in a saddle scabbard. Otherwise for ease of rapid manipulation the round knob bolt handle is the overwhelming shoice. Walk down the firing line at a high power rifle match. All you will see on the bolt guns is round knobs, the bigger the better. The same goes for the length of the bolt handle shank, the longer the better.

Of course, aesthetics have to be taken into account as well, but keep in mind, the larger angle the bolt handle turns through (90 degrees for a Mauser and Mauser derived actions, 60 degrees for Weatherby type actions) the easier it will be to open the bolt against a reluctant cartridge case.

In his book The Bolt Action, Stuart Otteson offers the following comparison between Mauser type (in this case the 98 Mauser), and the Weatherby type actions (Weatherby Mark III)

Mauser Operating

Extraction set back .16 in.
leverage 8.5 to 1

Chambering cam forward .25 in.
leverage 8 to 1

Bolt rotation 90 degrees

Operating forces bolt lift 5 lb.
bolt turndown 6 lb.

Weatherby Operating

Extraction set back .07 in.
leverage 6.5 to 1
Chambering cam forward .08 in.
leverage 17.5 to 1

Bolt rotation 57 degrees

Operating forces bolt lift 12.5 lb.
bolt turndown 5 lb.


The Mauser action cams the spent cartridge case more than twice as far out as the Weatherby and cams the fresh cartridge more than three times as far in. The force required to open and close the bolt are virtually the same in the Mauser, for a total of 11 pounds, while the Weatherby requires a total of 17.5 pounds, due to the need of cocking the firing pin with only 2/3 or the camming travel of the Mauser.

Edited by xausa (29/08/12 07:37 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: xausa]
      #215752 - 29/08/12 07:35 AM


The butter knife handle was popular on the MS's because
of the slick action and it seems to me that that was what
made the butter knife transition over to other guns.

I'm not a fan of them personally.

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xausa
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #215784 - 30/08/12 04:48 AM

The use of the butterknife bolt handle was not limited solely to the Mannlicher-Schoenauer. Factory Mauser Model M (for Mannlicher?) full stocked Stutzen (carbines) were manufactured with it, too. Interestingly enough, the Model S carbines have the normal bolt handle and lack the metal tip at the end of the fore end. The bolt handles on Brno Type 21 and 22, both rifles and carbines, are of the butterknife shape.

My Model 1922 Newton rifle, built by Mauser for sale by Newton in the US, also has a butterknife bolt handle.



Ease of rapid bolt manipulation from the shoulder does not seem to have a high priority with the designers of European bolt action repeating rifles since Paul Mauser.

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AFRO408
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: RLI]
      #215787 - 30/08/12 07:29 AM

Well. What a strange question.
I would think that either would be only as fast as the operator.
It's the nut behind the butt, that makes all the difference, in any endeavour.

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Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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gryphon
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: AFRO408]
      #215791 - 30/08/12 09:52 AM

Quote:

Well. What a strange question.
I would think that either would be only as fast as the operator.
It's the nut behind the butt, that makes all the difference, in any endeavour.



A good operator though will still work the round knob quicker than a butter knife handle if needed.
I doubt if there are many BK bolt handled bolt rifles used consistently on DG compared to round knobs.

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SharpsNitro
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: gryphon]
      #215873 - 01/09/12 10:00 AM

I like the modern rendition of the butter knife that Steyr has been using. I have that bolt handle on a Scout and a Pro Hunter, I like it more than the round knob they also use.

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Claydog
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #216206 - 06/09/12 08:00 AM

I use a mauser with a butterknife bolt handle and cant tell any difference to my round bolted mausers.
Next time i will remember to look at it when i work the bolt.

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Viking338
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: Claydog]
      #216238 - 06/09/12 05:21 PM

Quote:

I use a mauser with a butterknife bolt handle and cant tell any difference to my round bolted mausers.
Next time i will remember to look at it when i work the bolt.



I guess it might depend on whether you "choke" ( not sure that is the right description) a bolt handle or finesse it. Probably hard to describe it text but I like my scopes as low as possible so find I can't grab the bolt knob like I have seen some do when using open sights. So I find I just use my palm to lift and slide my finger back then use thumb to slide forward and close. I have never thought i was slow or awkward reloading. I know you will all think this obvious and simplistic maybe. But I also have never faced down a charging Cape Buff either, have been charged by many an angry boar and sow and always managed to do just fine. I guess my reason for waffling on is that the way I reload a bolt action is not affected by either design of bolt handle

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ozhunter
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: Viking338]
      #216314 - 08/09/12 12:57 PM

I find the thin butter knife handle such as on the Brno 21's to be quite uncomfortable.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: ozhunter]
      #216324 - 08/09/12 03:23 PM

Quickest? Easiest to use? Obviously the round bolt knob.

The butterknife bolt handles while different and attractive on some rifles are not as useful.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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StephenCoker
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: NitroX]
      #216486 - 10/09/12 12:49 PM

Lest we not forget Daniel Fraser's contribution to the subject? I always thought his version was about the sexiest bolt handle, and quite practical as well. Pictures related. First up is an original Fraser. Second, are my raw castings awaiting welding, polishing, checkering, and engraving.




--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

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Igorrock
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #216488 - 10/09/12 02:22 PM

Very nice ! Is there any possibilities to buy one casting ?

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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500Nitro
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: Igorrock]
      #216489 - 10/09/12 02:24 PM



Very nice indeed.

.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #216492 - 10/09/12 04:32 PM

Quote:

Lest we not forget Daniel Fraser's contribution to the subject? I always thought his version was about the sexiest bolt handle, and quite practical as well. Pictures related. First up is an original Fraser. Second, are my raw castings awaiting welding, polishing, checkering, and engraving.





Yes very sexy.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: NitroX]
      #216524 - 11/09/12 12:44 AM

Al butterknife handles I've used, required me to deliberately grasp the handle between my finders to operate, rather than merely hitting it with my palm to lift and extract, then slaming it forward with the palm to feed and close on a fresh round. The deliberate movements were slower - cannot see any situation where that could be faster than a round knob.

In proper speed operation of a SMLE bolt gun, the forefinger and thumb constantly grip the bolt's knob for operation, while the Saturday Night finger of that hand pulls the trigger. A practised solider could match a semi's rate of fire.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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StephenCoker
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: DarylS]
      #216661 - 13/09/12 07:51 AM

IGORROCK,

Just replied to your PM, and am replying to your reply in this thread as well.

At this time I am not selling the castings by themselves, but I greatly appreciate your interest. I am using them on the light magazine rifles I build in the Fraser and Henry style. Utilizing the castings speeds up the turnaround time on building my rifles. As you can imagine, there is a lot of delicate and time consuming file work on Scottish guns and rifles (Fraser, Henry, Dickson, Harkom, and others). This delicate file work and shaping of parts is really what sets the Scottish guns apart.

I hope to post more about the rifles I am building in the Scottish style as they progress. In fact, I plan to weld the handles onto a Mauser 96 and a Steyr (1902) action by the end of the week. If so, I'll try to get some pictures posted. Depending upon the level of interest I receive I may consider making myself available as a gunmaker to interested clients.

--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

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tophet1
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #216698 - 14/09/12 01:30 AM

I still have a few for sale. PM me if anybody is interested.

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StephenCoker
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: tophet1]
      #217043 - 21/09/12 02:11 AM

Well, as promised I've got my Fraser bolt handles TIG welded over the previous weekend, but it took me a while to get back out to the bench to polish them up. We've still got a newborn in the house! The first two pics are of the Fraser handle on my M96 take-down I'm building. The third picture is of the handle on MikeRowe's Dutch Steyr he's building. The fourth picture is MikeRowe's bolt in my Gibbs Steyr sporting rifle - just to get the "feel" of it! I'm a newbie on this forum, but I assume I should move further work on these rifles to another thread. Hope you enjoy.









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Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

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DarylS
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: StephenCoker]
      #217046 - 21/09/12 03:53 AM

"Which is quickest"?

How about 6.5 seconds for 10 shots, even with one short stroked?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFYZHLuxXZ8&feature=related

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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MikeRowe
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: DarylS]
      #217057 - 21/09/12 11:44 AM

I think Daniel Fraser came up with one of the nicest bolt handles ever. It lays pretty flat against the stock, but fills the hand nicely as the bolt is cycled. Whether it's faster than the other styles, I don't know. Fast enough for me, though.

Features like this are what makes Fraser rifles so special. No detail, however insignificant it may have seemed, escaped receiving some special attention.

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Caprivi
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: MikeRowe]
      #217059 - 21/09/12 12:24 PM

This young man and his Sauer 202 (with big round knob) surely are "compatable"

http://www.raywj.com/submissions/pigs-hunting-sauer-202

I like a fairly large in the way knob on rifles I know I am really gonna being working them over. I really like the WBY Mark V for the knob shape and the 54deg bolt lift on a hunting rifle as I shoot alot prone while hunting, very easy for me to manipulate. On mountain/tramping/packing rifles I like the smallest tightest to stock "Butterknife" I can get, as they are one less thing to poke me in the back or snag on bush.

StephenCoker and MikeRowe, congrats on the "Fraser" style. I too like them alot, sort of a best of both. Daniel's rifles where first and foremost for the Hill's I would speculate. Thus, a nice flat tight fitting handle is a asset in the Gamekeepers boot, as well as having the "knob" in case the Stag would need a few more shoots.

.............ah' I hate this, just read your mention (StephenCoker) of a '96 takedown............I have lusted after one of these since seeing on years ago. It was marked .303Fraser, owner said it used a light bullet 7.65x53 load............too cool.....

Put me in the queue for one of your bolt handles when/if you decide to sell them. I may have to settle for a little M46 Husquvarna with one of these handles...........

--------------------
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MikeRowe
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Re: Butterknife V Round Bolt handle, which is quickest? [Re: Caprivi]
      #217070 - 22/09/12 01:18 AM

I believe Fraser's .303 Velopex was the 7.65 Argentine cartridge with his own bullet. Fraser did that with other calibers also, like the .256. I guess you had to buy the ammunition from him as well.

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