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NitroXAdministrator
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Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle
      #214810 - 17/08/12 03:10 AM

Ivan Carter Double Bolt Action Rifle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-WJcYpNR0Q

African Professional Hunter Ivan Carter compares bolt action and double rifles in the field.

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John aka NitroX

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Edited by NitroX (17/08/12 03:31 AM)


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bonanza
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #214815 - 17/08/12 04:34 AM

This was just the same as when I shot my Wildebeest. I missed on the first shot and nailed him with the second shot immediately. Kind of like skeet shooting.

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500grains
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: bonanza]
      #214817 - 17/08/12 04:43 AM

Some great charges in there.

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gryphon
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: 500grains]
      #214822 - 17/08/12 06:07 AM

One thing to note is that there are so many that cannot handle either configuration too well.

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: gryphon]
      #214833 - 17/08/12 09:46 AM


I also enjoy hunting with a double.

But not everyone can afford a double.

If it takes me x years to save for the hunt. It will take me 2x to save for the hunt with a double.


.

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Tom30887
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #214842 - 17/08/12 05:07 PM

Quote:



If it takes me x years to save for the hunt. It will take me 2x to save for the hunt with a double.

.




Good point & very true.

Some excellent footage in that video. You don't realize the sheer size of an elephant until you see one towering over a man from 3 yds.


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gryphon
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Tom30887]
      #214843 - 17/08/12 05:30 PM

And the original old boys did it all with smoke poles....how about that!

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eagle27
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Tom30887]
      #214844 - 17/08/12 05:46 PM

Some good footage in the video but I suppose all it goes to show is that in all cases the shooter was not successful with his first shot although if watching closely at least one sequence shows the animal dropping on the first and the second was probably not needed.

I can well imagine that a video could be made up of both the first and second shot from doubles not being successful and this is the reason why at least some if not all of the PHs who have met their maker or been seriously injured recently has occurred (I don't know what weapons all were using but it has been revealed at least some had doubles.

I have done enough hunting and shooting including many years trap and skeet to know that if you miss with your first there is no guarantee you will be successful on the second, in fact it could be argued that if you do miss the first then you are possibly not quite set or concentrating and this condition can still follow over into the second attempt.

As to speed, well there are several video footages around showing very fast recovery and reloading on close in charges with bolt guns where the animal has been dropped just like in the video starting this thread.

Gryphon says it well and all too true "One thing to note is that there are so many that cannot handle either configuration too well".

Still absolutely nothing wrong with the double and it has it's place in DG hunting but it is not necessarily going to guarantee success or survival anymore than a good well handled bolt gun, 'well handled' being the key words with whatever weapon we choose.


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bonanza
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Tom30887]
      #214850 - 17/08/12 09:22 PM

I saw a huge bull last year in Kruger Park about 30 yards away. It was like a dinosaur. The ground thumped as he walked.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: eagle27]
      #214891 - 18/08/12 03:46 PM

Quote:

I can well imagine that a video could be made up of both the first and second shot from doubles not being successful and this is the reason why at least some if not all of the PHs who have met their maker or been seriously injured recently has occurred (I don't know what weapons all were using but it has been revealed at least some had doubles.





On some of those charge sequences, there would have been no time for a second shot from a bolt action.

There is a reason EVERY PH wants a double rifle to hunt dangerous game with. And those that don't can't afford one or haven't saved for one yet.

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Edited by NitroX (18/08/12 03:55 PM)


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Ben
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #214894 - 18/08/12 04:25 PM

There're a few PHs who, by the sounds of it, simply prefer a bolt rifle. One in particular had a recent encounter that he believes could've been prevented with a double, and yet his new rifle is a bolt-action - I don't know why, but possibly because of familiarity and confidence in it. Boddington's Safari Rifles II has a good survey on this.

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eagle27
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #214943 - 19/08/12 12:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I can well imagine that a video could be made up of both the first and second shot from doubles not being successful and this is the reason why at least some if not all of the PHs who have met their maker or been seriously injured recently has occurred (I don't know what weapons all were using but it has been revealed at least some had doubles.





On some of those charge sequences, there would have been no time for a second shot from a bolt action.

There is a reason EVERY PH wants a double rifle to hunt dangerous game with. And those that don't can't afford one or haven't saved for one yet.




I don't know that there is any compelling proof that "EVERY PH wants a double".

The very 'doubles' promoting video was edited to only show missed or ineffectual first shots but successful second shots. My point was that the video did not show any sequences where the second shot was also ineffectual which possibly happens more often than not or more often than we like to admit (with any style of weapon) i.e. there is no statistical reason to suppose a second shot is going to be more effectual that the first shot with any weapon. The animal maybe closer in a charge sequence but the second or subsequent shot/s must still hit the animal and then hit a vital or killing spot to stop the charge.

If the video had been made to promote bolt action use, I'm sure we would have seen plenty of drop dead first shots or very fast and effective second or third followups all coming out saying how great the bolt is for DG hunting.

Neither video would of course show fluffed shots where the PH or other personnel got hurt or the animal got away.

A concern I have in watching various video footage of some double users is that sometimes they fire off a fast second shot irrespective of the animal showing signs of going down with the first and then of course are completely unloaded in the case of the animal getting up again or another animal causing problems. In other words they are reacting a little like the guy using a semi, keep pulling the trigger while the gun will fire.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: eagle27]
      #214953 - 19/08/12 04:52 PM

Quote:



I don't know that there is any compelling proof that "EVERY PH wants a double".




No? EVERY single one I have hunted with or spoke too has wanted one. Except many can not afford one. Some argue viciously against doubles on the net. Why? Because of envy and not being able to afford one. Doubles are expensive and beyond many PHs incomes, especially the part-time ones doing very few clients. Some have DR's as a tip from a grateful generous client, or because the client is a gunmaker and it is good PR.

One of my PH's didn't have one. When asked he really wanted one. BUT only if it was a top grade sidelock H&H or equivalent. He had used one when working for the booking agency H&H used to have, and wanted nothing lesser now. I think he would be waiting a long time ...

I get many enquiries from PHs saying how can I source an affordable double rifle. Usually a bargain priced but good one! I usually have to tell them, those sorts of rifles good very fast when they pop up. The best bet for them if the plainer, modern rifles such as the Heym PH, a Merkel, a Chapuis, or a plainer V-C. Engraving or top wood isn't needed. I advise the second hand modern market sometimes turns up good deals.


Quote:

The very 'doubles' promoting video was edited to only show missed or ineffectual first shots but successful second shots. My point was that the video did not show any sequences where the second shot was also ineffectual which possibly happens more often than not or more often than we like to admit (with any style of weapon) i.e. there is no statistical reason to suppose a second shot is going to be more effectual that the first shot with any weapon. The animal maybe closer in a charge sequence but the second or subsequent shot/s must still hit the animal and then hit a vital or killing spot to stop the charge.




I think you find when hunting big game such as buffalo, certainly elephant, eland, scrub bulls etc etc, is the beasts rarely die with a single bullet quickly, unless spine or brain shot. Even my eland, heart shot, took several minutes lying down to bleed out and still require a second shot to get him to lie down.

I don't know your BG hunting experience (no offence meant) but my experience and certainly what I have witnessed is the larger the game on the upper side, they don't die quickly. Unless brain or spine shot.

Edited: I see on your profile hunting water buff. What was your experiences of these? Please include where the bullet was placed too? Calibre etc?

Quote:

Neither video would of course show fluffed shots where the PH or other personnel got hurt or the animal got away.




Or is shot by the client either .... I dare say ....


Quote:

A concern I have in watching various video footage of some double users is that sometimes they fire off a fast second shot irrespective of the animal showing signs of going down with the first and then of course are completely unloaded in the case of the animal getting up again or another animal causing problems. In other words they are reacting a little like the guy using a semi, keep pulling the trigger while the gun will fire.




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Edited by NitroX (19/08/12 05:03 PM)


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eagle27
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #214964 - 19/08/12 07:36 PM

John don't get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against doubles and am not 'for' bolt actions, my concerns where I see posts promoting one over the other or in the case of this video, where seemingly the double is being promoted as the only gun suitable for facing DG charges which will guarantee success and will protect you and all around you, is that this is just not reality and no matter what weapon anyone chooses it will always come back to the state of mind and skill of the person using the weapon that will have the most effect on the outcome.

I think a video such as the one starting this thread, while not untrue in terms of what a well handled double is capable of, can still be dangerous in creating something for the impressionable that is not the full story.
Like photos these days, videos are also easily created or compiled to show any point of view you like but that does not mean it is all true and will work for everyone. Maybe all the modern PHs are wanting doubles. Maybe they have lost or never gained what many of the early hunters and PHs had and are showing a little ’modern’ impressionability. Many of those PHs/hunters that have passed (through old age) and some still living were great exponents of the bolt gun.

(Quote: I don't know your BG hunting experience (no offence meant) but my experience and certainly what I have witnessed is the larger the game on the upper side, they don't die quickly. Unless brain or spine shot.Edited: I see on your profile hunting water buff. What was your experiences of these? Please include where the bullet was placed too? Calibre etc?)

In answer to your question, and certainly no offence taken, my DG experience as yet is still in its infancy although I hope to improve on that in the coming years with a trip to Africa. I will only be able to afford one so even then it will possibly be only one DG animal, buffalo being my real interest.
As to the infancy part I was fortunate to have kindled my interest in your top end DG and head off up there in my younger years with not really a clue about much other than I had been hunting for most of the previous twenty years shooting hundreds of our game animals under all sorts of conditions. Buffalo were not going to present a problem to me as I had the venerable 404 to take care of that. My mate only had his 7mm with Noslers. We did not have a PH but had a pet meat shooter who carted us round and mostly remained out of trouble back at the 4WD while we high tailed it off after these great animals. He would take a load of buff meat back to his base every night so we did lay low quite a few buffs during the week we were there. We did pick out some big bulls and shot some animals close up in the scrub. One or two charged or ran towards us at times, maybe confused or frightened with the shooting but I wasn’t waiting to ask. The 7mm was okay on head or neck but hopeless on body shots so the 404 had to speak a few times on his animals too.

I can’t recall how many we shot all up, wasn’t really a counting game for me back then. The pet meat shooter sconed one or two with his 338WM from the vehicle but all others were on foot with the 7mm and 404. We only shot large animals, bulls and cows.
I used solids and planted them where I always plant any animal, high through the shoulders or high into the chest. The Mauser 404 was in its element, as was I, and I don’t recall having any fear or concerns that I would not drop what ever appeared in front, or on occasion running in from behind. My mate and I were mostly shoulder to shoulder and I recall a couple of annoyed buffs were only a matter of 2 or 3 metres away when the 404 bellowed.
I suppose all I can say is my experience was pretty rough and ready and probably closer to the old days of Aussie or African hunting than the modern hunter has today. Certainly there was no-one handy to get us out of trouble if there had been any.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: eagle27]
      #214977 - 19/08/12 11:41 PM

My question was more along the lines of how many of the water buff died quickly from one shot. Not including spine and brain shots.

My experience is even with heart shots they take a while to die. If they are aggro that time can be enough if at close enough range to squash someone.

I'm not an expert, just what my experience has been and observations.

My experience with a double on elephant, is that it gave me a lot of confidence on approaching very close, both two barrels and a .450 calibre with good bullets. If I shot a .600 and shot it well, that would be double the confidence for the really big stuff in the thick.

What I find from the featured video, is that is a fun and entertaining video. And I wish I was hunting buffalo, lion and elephant myself ... tomorrow.

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Buchsemann
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #214983 - 20/08/12 01:41 AM

As expected this post brings up the pros and cons of using doubles in dangerous situations, with the biggest con generally being their lofty price points, but I was more blown away by the nature of the Ivan Carter's job! Working as a Resident Engineer/Supplier Represenative representing five of our nine manufacturing facilities I can't help but feel quite dull in comparison

Buchseman

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eagle27
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #215029 - 20/08/12 08:02 AM

Quote:

My question was more along the lines of how many of the water buff died quickly from one shot. Not including spine and brain shots.

My experience is even with heart shots they take a while to die. If they are aggro that time can be enough if at close enough range to squash someone.

I'm not an expert, just what my experience has been and observations.

My experience with a double on elephant, is that it gave me a lot of confidence on approaching very close, both two barrels and a .450 calibre with good bullets. If I shot a .600 and shot it well, that would be double the confidence for the really big stuff in the thick.

What I find from the featured video, is that is a fun and entertaining video. And I wish I was hunting buffalo, lion and elephant myself ... tomorrow.




The ones I specifically shot with the 404 all dropped and died one shot. Was using Parker Hale factory solids and reloads with RWS solidss. I also must have tried a couple of Kynoch soft nose rounds at some stage in the proceedings as I had some empties at the end of the trip. Did get confusing at times as to who was shooting what and the 404 dispatched a couple of wounded ones getting to their feet once inside the bush. At one stage my mate had his scope on 9x when he went to finish a big wounded cow rearing to her feet as we approached so could only see black at the couple of metres range we were at. I covered while he cranked back to 3x and then head shot her.

All sounds a bit amateurish by today's controlled standards but that was us then, not a care or worry in the world. Not so sure I would like to repeat it at my age today, I couldn't run as fast or as far as I could then, if I had needed to.

BTW I've never liked heart shots on any animal hence my preference for the higher shoulder and brisket shots where the arteries are. A kneeling shot which I like on any animal front on nearly always angles the bullet up into the spine which helps for that quick put down.

Couldn't agree more with you on the entertaining value of the video and I would join you in a flash to hunt the big ones today.


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tinker
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: eagle27]
      #215033 - 20/08/12 08:39 AM

It's a nice little video.
I enjoy my bolt rifles and I enjoy my double rifles.
Given the chance to use either on big dangerous game, I'd take the double rifle.





Cheers
Tinker

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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #215484 - 25/08/12 06:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I can well imagine that a video could be made up of both the first and second shot from doubles not being successful and this is the reason why at least some if not all of the PHs who have met their maker or been seriously injured recently has occurred (I don't know what weapons all were using but it has been revealed at least some had doubles.





On some of those charge sequences, there would have been no time for a second shot from a bolt action.

There is a reason EVERY PH wants a double rifle to hunt dangerous game with. And those that don't can't afford one or haven't saved for one yet.





Not true at all there is even a ph that straight out says (i cant remember his name) on boddingtons AFRICAN RIFLES that say's that he just feel's more comfortable with a bolt action he said that someone with a double may get off the first two shot's quicker but he will get of his 3-4 faster


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Ripp
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #215607 - 27/08/12 04:26 AM

Quote:

It's a nice little video.
I enjoy my bolt rifles and I enjoy my double rifles.
Given the chance to use either on big dangerous game, I'd take the double rifle.
Cheers
Tinker




Agree totally...and yes, in a couple of those scenes, there is no way you would have gotten a second shot off that quick with a bolt...

Have not talked to a ton of PH's..but the ones I have really liked doubles..in fact 2 of them in my last camp both said once they can afford it they would get one...

Think both have their place in Africa..and both have pro's and con's.. given a choice..I would pick the double for the big stuff ..especially ele...you have a good sized target and are typically at close range..same holds true going in for wounded big stuff..there again the double would be my choice..

Ripp

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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Ripp]
      #215610 - 27/08/12 04:56 AM

wish I could see the video, it has been put on a "over 18 list" so I need to set up a youtube account which is proving impossible, drives me mad, best

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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #215626 - 27/08/12 06:42 AM

Well one of our members had a misfire in his double as posted recently...one imp thing with the bolt rifle is that you can jack another one into the chamber..if ya quick!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #215645 - 27/08/12 11:24 AM

Quote:

wish I could see the video, it has been put on a "over 18 list" so I need to set up a youtube account which is proving impossible, drives me mad, best




Because you are such a good guy.

nitroexpress.info/ezine/Videos/HEYMIvanCarterDoubleRifles/HEYMIvanCarterDoubleBoltActionRifle.wmv

But I hope you are over 18 for such an adult video!

(Quality is not as good as the YouTube download. Had some trouble converting the 44 Mb file into something not 300 Mb. The wmv file is about 19 Mb.)

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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #215803 - 31/08/12 12:12 AM

I bought Buzz Charlton new DVD and during the chapter on Charges he sometimes hints that he wished he had a Double at that time.I've read that afew people that know him say he maybe looking to buy a Double.I enjoy watching his videos it would be cool to see him use a Double and his Ruger in one.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Ivan Carter - Double Rifle vs Bolt Action Rifle [Re: Dave_Hall]
      #215831 - 31/08/12 06:02 PM

Thx Nitro, can see it now, cheers, Mike

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