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lancaster
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excuse me, I bought an assault rifle
      #214393 - 12/08/12 02:15 AM

I did not hope to offend anyone here with such a punk rifle
good old Winchester M 1910 in 401 WSL coming from sweden. more of this rifle's available there so it must have been a moose caliber before WW 2.













the butt plate is not original anymore but I am not a winchester collector. seems to be a common problem with those old winchester's. I think the plate was made of an early kind of plastik that did not survive the years.




anyone knows how to disassemple the forearm? it looks like a special tool is necessary to loose what looks like a nut.


















made by kynoch so it must have seen some use in exotic place's around the world
in an old german cartridge manual the kynoch load is listed as the only one available in 1973






winchester-western ballistik







its very heavy but handy




could not sleep the last time because there was a caliber gap between the 375 and the 10,75mm(424)



9mm, 9,3mm, .375 - 401- 10,75mm, 11,2mm





here its only legal on roe deer but it seems this is a serious short range rifle





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 12:58 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214396 - 12/08/12 02:32 AM

There are no flies on a 250gr. .40 cal bullet making 1,860fps, or the 200gr. at over 2,100.

The .41 mag. handgun puts a 210gr. out at about 1,350fps and easily takes care of deer, bear, elk and moose, within the accuracy range of the shooter. This rifle is considerably better, power wise. Even the .351Win. the .401's little brother, was a good deer/black bear rifle with it's 180gr. bullet.

I've always wanted one of those rifles when I was a kid, but could not afford it. By the time I could afford one, I was into a BRNO .358 MN and .375's.

Now, at 62 yrs. old, your post rekindled that old desire again - just to be different. That .401 would be a fun gun for hunting here & would easily handle any sized bear, within reasonable range - the ultimatte, h+ll no, but adequate.

Only legal for roe deer? - funny regulations.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #214402 - 12/08/12 04:09 AM

the 401 would not a good rifle for a kid, its very, very heavy. maybe the smaller cartridge rifle's up to 351 WSL?
any game bigger than roedeer need an energy over 2000 joule at 100 meter to be legal here and iirc this is the same minimum on moose in sweden today. so this old rifles are more or less worthless in sweden now.

the 401 WSL is in fact a 41 super magnum and the 414 super magnum brass by starline is the best solution for making it. http://www.johannsen-jagd.de/data_de/katalog/sammelseiten/Huelsen.pdf
the case have to be cut for 1,5mm and the rim have to be turned down and its ready.




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 12:58 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214406 - 12/08/12 06:09 AM

Yeah - I'd agree with your hypothesis, Lancaster, except I was a 6 foot tall, 182 pound kid by the time I hit grade 9 at 14 years old, I think. That's when I became interested in shooting something larger than ground hogs, ie: the huge black bears of northern Ontario up to 450/500 actual pounds. At the time, I was shooting 12 pound ground hogs with a Remington 6.5 Mag.

Weird lookin' Bar!

Neat rifle!!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214423 - 12/08/12 04:16 PM

Quote:

I did not hope to offend anyone here with such a punk rifle
good old Winchester M 1910 in 401 WSL coming from sweden. more of this rifle's available there so it must have been a moose caliber before WW 2.





An interesting example of a vintage semi-auto. 'Funny' how these cartridges used to manage to kill the beasts years ago, but can't kill them today.

--------------------
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Paul
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #214428 - 12/08/12 04:41 PM

Believe it or not, John, I'd like to have one of those rifles. It would be extra good for pigs and maybe enough for sambar. I was asked to evaluate a book by an old hound hunter once. He said the .44/40 had been good on sambar out to 70 yards, so the .401 should be at least that good. Unless an angle shot needed more penetration, the increased frontal area might make it better than the 375 Win, too.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: Paul]
      #214432 - 12/08/12 04:59 PM

Paul

I would like to have a couple of these:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=202357&page=0&fpart=2&vc=1

One of a esteemed old double rifle collectors, ie the rifles are old, not Curl, , has some other interesting fully working toys. Check them out.

Other members also have some interesting firearms, not often talked about on NE.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Paul
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #214437 - 12/08/12 08:31 PM

When I was nine, John, I would have given my right cojone for one. I used to carry a .45ACP round and say, like Pondoro's mate with his .450/.400, that's a nice cartridge!

Then I heard our next-door-neighbour owned a Tommy gun. I never saw it - he was rich and a man of many parts. These days he collects massive windmills and (with a site rental of $10,000 each pa) I wish I had a few of those, too. If I could hear them turning, it would be like listening to money pouring out of a poker machine - even sweeter than the sound of a Chicago piano.

Edited by Paul (13/08/12 12:13 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: Paul]
      #214439 - 12/08/12 11:24 PM

lancaster, here you find a repro butt plate for your rifle:

http://homesteadparts.com/shopcart/pid_906.htm

And it seems that there in eBay is some for sale too....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WINCHESTER-MODELS-67-69-72-77-1910-BUTT-PLATE-/120710117903

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: Igorrock]
      #214461 - 13/08/12 04:31 AM

thank you kari, I will keep this in mind but the reloading stuff comes first. Johannsen list the 414 supermag brass and I hope they realy have it. if not I have to do the hard way and rework 7,62x39 brass. the 414 supermag brass is not available in the united states just know(to my knowledge) so I hope they sit on old stock.
for reloading I will take a 41 Mag Lee die set. the only bullets available here are .41 mag 210 grains JHP bullet's. Sierra, Speer, Remington, Hornady - all the same stuff. dont think this will be a hunting bullet but for paper enough.
when having time next week I will made a resizing die for resize .410 bullets down to .407.

to become independent once I will try to make my own bullets. 9mm parabellum brass seems to be a good aspirant for this job.

I weigh the rifle and its 3850 gramm but had swear before its over 5000 gramm.
if anyone is interested how to dissamble there is video about the Winchester M 1907 that's maybe also true for the M 1910:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07aelBEyV...m7-SZUnFn_RNP3r

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (13/08/12 04:35 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #214462 - 13/08/12 04:57 AM

Quote:

Paul

I would like to have a couple of these:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=202357&page=0&fpart=2&vc=1

One of a esteemed old double rifle collectors, ie the rifles are old, not Curl, , has some other interesting fully working toys. Check them out.

Other members also have some interesting firearms, not often talked about on NE.




I believe the tommy gun is a gentleman's gun suitable for groose
that's how I imagine the Glorious Twelfth:





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 12:59 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214464 - 13/08/12 06:14 AM

It seems that here would be some cases for you:

http://www.theammodump.com/brass.php

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: Igorrock]
      #214532 - 13/08/12 11:22 PM

everything is allright, johannsen have 900 cases on stock I order 250 for the start. 210 grains sierra bullets and a 41 mag die set so it can begin.
the starline brass is the best solution 250 cases for 139 euro

I think Vithavouri N 110 will do the job.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Igorrock
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214536 - 14/08/12 12:03 AM

You mean Vihtavuori ? It´s a place in Middle Finland near by Jyväskylä where VALMET factories used to be.



Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:01 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: Igorrock]
      #214542 - 14/08/12 12:31 AM

you KNOW that I KNOW this

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214545 - 14/08/12 12:55 AM

There are bullet moulds available for at least up to 250gr. A lead bullet might foul a gas port though, if that rifle uses a gas port - likely not a blowback action, but I just don't know either way.

.41 mag bullets run up to 220gr. Speer but in a large semi-wadcutter-type lead nose that might not chamber on autoloader function, but the other makes here, are maxed at 210gr.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #214552 - 14/08/12 01:21 AM

just now there is a lee 240 grains mould in auction here. thinking about this but the bullet need a gas check in any case. http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3959716
I fear any load working semi-auto will be to hot for lead bullets.

if its possible to make bullets of 9mm parabellum brass ?
I will make an .375 insider expander and a mould for casting .375 lead core's. than press the core into the case in the rock chucker and resize to .407, ready!?
this rifle is more or less a fun project for my son and he will shot it at 50 meter's only on paper. if there will be some work for him before, good for him!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (14/08/12 01:21 AM)


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500grains
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214554 - 14/08/12 02:14 AM

The .401 is a great old rifle. Some in .351 were used to guard prisoners and I bet that round was very effective at close range. Kind of like a gigantic .30 carbine.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: 500grains]
      #214586 - 14/08/12 12:24 PM

I had to appear on prime-time TV to defend the right of shooters to own semi-automatic firearms. I took along an early Browning semi-auto shotgun of 1900's vintage and a Winchester .401 just like this. The point I made is that they've been around for more than a century. They were, as you say, effectively "assault rifles" and readily available but were never a problem until now. So what's changed? For instance, the idea that crazy people are better left in the community unsupervised and poorly medicated to save money.

It must have gone down OK because I never heard anyone who didn't think the shooter's argument was well made. Even the show's host, who was rabidly anti-gun just a few years before, was clearly on our side that night, (OK, I had to do some fast talking to him in the adverts to win him over, but he'd wised up!).

I liked the way the .401 could easily be stripped down. It's only draw back that stopped more development like it, was that it was a blow back design. It was certainly well engineered in days when quality mattered. When you look at Ruger's .44 mag semi-auto rifle of c. 30 years ago, it's pretty much the same thing.


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Paul
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #214599 - 14/08/12 02:39 PM

Maybe your talk did work, Kiwi bloke - you've still got 'em.

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DarylS
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: Paul]
      #214628 - 15/08/12 02:02 AM

9mm cases are listed as .391" nominaly. To much undersized.
With a proper die, you might be able to size down or draw .30/30 brass, but would need perhaps up to .008" or more reduction on new brass. The last I measured was .416" new, now .420" as noted in the books. Does that mean 9mm Luger brass is also undersized today?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #214633 - 15/08/12 04:12 AM

I know this daryl
anything elso than 9mm parabellum is not economic. this brass is cheap and available in large amount.
I have to made inside expander to bring the case body over .407 without making the case asymmetric.
dont know if its possible I will search it
the mould have to be for a 145 grains bullet so it is close to the 210 grains bullet weight with a 9 mm case.
I will inform you about my success or failure! its not for the money, with all the work connected you can easy buy factory bullets. its for independence!

kiwi bloke good work

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214686 - 16/08/12 01:22 AM

this was quick: brass, bullets and die set

the 414 super magnum is 40,80mm long, CIP length for the 401 WSL is 38,10mm. I use the case hand trimmer and its good enough. rim diameter is 11,68mm max for the 401 so I turned it down on the lathe. the Lee 41 mag carbide die set will full lenght rezise this brass without problems
diameter on case mouth 10,91mm amnd base 11,00mm. CIP measurments for the 401 are 10,99 case mouth and 11,00mm base.
to good to be true




side by side: original 414 supermag and 401 WSL reworked




the case fits fine into the chamber, the hammer strikes with force





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:01 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214689 - 16/08/12 02:13 AM

Looking good.

For lead filled cases/bullets, 1st- anneal the case that will become the bullet, then clean/burnish with steel wool on a dowel, then wipe with Q-tip with solder flux, then fill with alloyed lead, rounded, then bumped with a round nosed nose punch from a lube sizer would form the case into the nose, crimping it slightly. That way, no bullets to purchase to fill. Melted range salvage adhere's to the 'case' wall quite well, due to the alloys used. The penetration is supurb compared to pure lead cores, I found.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214752 - 16/08/12 02:27 PM

Quote:

this was quick: brass, bullets and die set




Wow! That was quick.

I'll have to ask you to source some of the rarer stuff I need in your country of "north" judging by your speed and success!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214768 - 16/08/12 05:00 PM

Quote:



I believe the tommy gun is a gentleman's gun suitable for groose
that's how I imagine the Glorious Twelfth:








Cool photo.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:02 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #214839 - 17/08/12 03:13 PM

there is no secret about success. you have internet access and a credit card?
most of the stuff there is realy on stock or will be there in 2-3 weeks:
http://www.johannsen-jagd.de/data_de/katalog_en/katalog.php?navid=2

page 123-130 is brass

complete trustworthy

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #214876 - 18/08/12 07:04 AM

the homemade bullet sizing die is working
the sierra bullet seems to be very hard when sizing it down by the fact its only 0,08mm : 10,41mm to 10,34mm






before and after




the brass eject excellent in the rifle but I have a problem with the 41 mag shellholder.the brass lose the grip because the rim is turning down from 12,28mm to 11,68mm .
so I cut the groove most modern revolver brass have a little bit deeper till it fits the RCBS No.3 shellholder(8x57)


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:03 AM)


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mehulkamdar
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #215273 - 23/08/12 06:57 AM

Lancaster,

Somehow you do manage to find the most interesting old guns. Beautiful old rifle and it would be nice to see how she shoots when you do a range test. I'll look forward to follow up posts on this one.

Good hunting and thanks for sharing.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #215341 - 24/08/12 04:41 AM

reloading in detail

basic case: 414 supermag Starline
bullet: 210 grains Sierra JHP resized to 10,34mm
primer: S&B large rifle
the brass seems to be made for large rifle primer but the 414 supermag is a handgan round. good for me so I dont have to stock another primer because dont loading large pistol cartridge's.
die set: lee 41 mag carbide die set



the carbide sizing die works perfect



I dont use the lee expander die but expand the case mouth just a little bit with a 357 mag expander. I mean the upper conical part of the RCBS expander that give the case a a good start for plain base bullets...



to prevent this:



powder load comes later...



I use the lee Lee bullet seat die a little bit unorthodox
the next two pic's show how I adjust the die




this way the die have no contact with shell holder



but it works fine and the bullet have a very strong fit in the case. I have unloading three rounds with a Impact Bullet Puller and it need some force to do it.


the max. cartridge lenght in my rifle is +/- 50,2mm so I make the round a little bit shorter





powder load?

this data I have save once:



" From Ideal Handbook No. 38:
250-gr. lead plain base #410426
2400 - 18.0 start 1430 fps - 23.0 max 1700 fps
4227 - 19.0 start 1450 fps - 27.5 max 1850 fps
Unique - 13.7 1550 fps

200-gr. jacketed
2400 - 19.0 start 1595 fps - 24.7 max 2060 fps
4227 - 29.0 start 1965 fps - 31.0 max 2100 fps
SR4759 - 20.0 1525 fps
Unique - 15.2 1785 fps

250-gr. jacketed
2400 - 18.0 start 1430 fps - 23.3 max 1765 fps
4227 - 19.0 start 1445 fps - 27.5 max 1850 fps
SR4759 - 19.0 1425 fps
Unique - 13.7 1525 fps

From Complete Guide to Handloading:
200-gr. SP seating depth 0.217"
2400 - 13.0 - 990 fps
2400 - 19.0 - 1525 fps
2400 - 24.7 - 2060 fps
Unique - 10.0 - 1290 fps
Unique - 15.2 - 1785 fps
4227 - 31.0 - 2100 fps (s/d 0.200")

250-gr. SP seating depth 0.323"
2400 - 11.0 - 720 fps
2400 - 18.0 - 1430 fps
2400 - 23.3 - 1765 fps
Unique - 9.0 - 1090 fps
Unique - 13.7 - 1525 fps
4227 - 19.0 - 1445 fps (s/d 0.300")
4227 - 27.5 - 1850 fps (s/d 0.300")

250-gr. lead (mould not specified) seating depth 0.292"
2400 - 12.0 - 1050 fps
2400 - 15.0 - 1285 fps
2400 - 18.0 - 1480 fps
Unique - 10.0 - 1330 fps

I doubt that the lighter Unique and 2400 loads could cycle the action, but they would save wear and tear on the cases by not launching them into the weeds.

From "The 401 Lives!", H. Bodinson, Handloader's Digest, 12th Ed.

"To make a long story short, #2400, while accurate, proved more dirty than I like in a blowback action. It just never seems to burn completely in any straight-bodied pistol-sized case I have ever loaded. Firing it in the Model 1910 left the action area full of unburned powder particles. IMR-4227, however, worked perfectly. It produced good accuracy, excellent velocity, reliable operation of the 1910 action and was very clean burning."

"Using Bell or Sailer (note: made from .35 Remington case) brass trimmed to 1.50 inches, the three brands of available jacketed bullets seated to an overall cartridge length of 2 inches, IMR-4227 powder, and Remington 9½ primers, my final factory duplication loads turned out to be the following:
200 -gr. jacketed bullet
29.0 grs. IMR-4227 / 2040 fps
250-gr. jacketed bullet
27.0 grs. IMR-4227 / 1880 fps "

it was not realy a big help! I found a load for the 41 mag with a 220 grains lead bullet and 16,3 grains N 110. that's a powder I allways try to have at home and so decided to start with 18 grains and go up to 27 grains. was in a indoor target range yesterday where I try the rifle at 25 meter the first time. to make a long story short. the rifle eject the fired case with 18 grains but did not reload the next from the magazin. with 19 grains it works properly but I go higher up to the 24 grains load. dont had the feeling this was maximum but the brass comes out of the self loading action show's more wear and tear with every grain more. so a 20 and 21 grains load is now under research.

a group showing all 7 loads 18 to 24 grains
I think the two groups are in reality one because they have a very bad light on this range where you siting more or less in the darkness and only the target gets light. I had make sometimes a mistakes with the iron sight's. the rifle shoot's straight but high and we will see what happen at 50 meter.








fired brass





maybe it help someone with such a wonderful vintage semi auto but everything at own risk

the 401 WSL is listed as a rimmed cartridge in fact it is one of the rare semi rimmed cases like the 32 ACP/ 7,65 Brow I load for my PPK. a case desigh that did not realy survive outside of some heavy machine canon's. my other strange round the 11,2x60 Schüler with the rebated rim was a better idea it live 's in cartridges like 50 beowulf, 50 AE, 458 Socom. 45 Blaser and many more





Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:04 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #215502 - 26/08/12 04:56 AM

rifle was on the range again today, my son and a friend make 90 shot without a problem. action work and feet like a clock. definitely louder and more recoil than a G3 in 7,62 nato
this was a typical target with 5 rounds ( 20 grains N 110)at 50 meter




drawback is the rifle become hot very quick(after 5-10 rounds) just to much power packed into this little round. must say now that my first impression when I got this its only a toy. this is true but its a toy for real man

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (08/10/12 01:04 AM)


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fuhrmann
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #215530 - 26/08/12 05:42 PM

What is the difference between a boy and a man?
---
The toys get more expensive!!

Congratulation to yoour new toy, this is a nice one!
Fuhrmann


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: fuhrmann]
      #215588 - 27/08/12 02:45 AM

Nice and accurate.

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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rigbymauser
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #215597 - 27/08/12 03:41 AM


Great little rifle you have there Lancaster.

I have in a Handloaders Digest a 4 or 5 page artical regarding the .401WCF which I always read when this book gets on top of the pile. The author of the artical call the 1910 a "Blammer". Here in Denmark actually a 401WCF has turned up on Lauritz.com this year. A blast from the past for sure..:LOL

J.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #217737 - 08/10/12 01:05 AM

Lancaster,

That is a great rifle, and you have done a brilliant job of making ammunition for it. I'm envious of your new "assault rifle."

Curl

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DarylS
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #217738 - 08/10/12 03:04 AM

Me too, that would be a fun gun to play with, experiment with and use for deer, pigs or maybe even an 18 month old moose in the bush. It would certainly do the job.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #222881 - 04/01/13 06:27 PM

last time I stopped with the question if its possible to make bullets for the 401 WSL with improvised equipment at home.
ok, lets try it. only once fired 9mm Parabellum brass for free is worth the troubel. it measure +/- 9,89mm at the base so I was trying to expand the case body at least over 10,34/.407

9mm parabellum brass
RCBS 9mm neck expander
home made neck expander


like before
RCBS 375 NE2,5" neck expander in the 9mm para die


my homemade 407 swaging die
the 9mm para brass is running first time through it


124 grains 8mm bullet ready to load
was the best I had at home! 9mm bullet cast from pure lead would be much better choice



and back from meeting the famous rockchucker


the simple homemade tool
made with a 10,5mm drill


sized a second time and ready to load. a dummy round works fine in the action


we will see if its able to hit something. worth the trouble? I dont now but at least I can become independ.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 08:26 PM)


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Igorrock
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #222893 - 04/01/13 09:57 PM

Very interesting bullet !

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DarylS
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: Igorrock]
      #222909 - 05/01/13 02:20 AM

Ctg case bullets are fun to play with and can be very effective.
Pure lead cores are MUCH easier to cold form.
Well done.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #224260 - 25/01/13 05:53 AM

when searching for something completly different I come to this site http://bobshellsblog.blogspot.de/search?...p;by-date=false
and stumble over this pic



"Core mold can be adjusted for weight"

I had seen this before once but forget it. what for a brilliant design and easy to made mould if you have a lathe(I do). will make it for casting 9,5mm core's.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 08:27 PM)


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Caprivi
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #224276 - 25/01/13 02:12 PM

Very cool project lancaster. I like these bullets made from spent cases, very innovative. Inspiring.

While looking for a source for my 9.3x57 I found a company, NOE, making good looking bullet molds at attractive pices, with nice options as well as proper accessory tools.

NOE Bullet molds
http://noebulletmolds.com/orders/catalog/index.php

Oh' duh' they make a few .401 molds.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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AkMike
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: Caprivi]
      #224280 - 25/01/13 03:17 PM

For regular casting check out AccurateMolds.com . Tom is very fast and inexpensive.

I've shot jacketed wullets thta have the jacket formed with spent 22 rimfires. They worked fine and I'm sure these 9mm's will too.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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Caprivi
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #224282 - 25/01/13 03:38 PM

Quote:

when searching for something completly different I come to this site http://bobshellsblog.blogspot.de/search?...p;by-date=false
and stumble over this pic



"Core mold can be adjusted for weight"

I had seen this before once but forget it. what for a brilliant design and easy to made mould if you have a lathe(I do). will make it for casting 9,5mm core's.





Here is one on eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adjustable-Core-...=item5aea4d5ce4

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 08:27 PM)


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DBateman
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: Caprivi]
      #227076 - 16/03/13 12:36 PM

Nice rifle.

I have always wanted one in .351win ...

Thank you for taking time to post the pics and how its been going.


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texan72
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: DBateman]
      #227240 - 20/03/13 02:34 AM

Nice Winchester , I too am guilty of having the same such rifles sorry for the offence


--------------------
http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com[/

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 08:28 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: texan72]
      #227244 - 20/03/13 03:54 AM

please feel free making a thread about the remingtom model 8
I would enjoy it


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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texan72
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #227249 - 20/03/13 05:08 AM

I would but theres better stuff on them @
http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com
which I started back in 2009, and since
passed over to Cam Woodall
but I had a couple articles I did on there.
But I still own a few and hunt with a 107 yr old Model 8
and 60yr old Model 81 every year and one always goes whenever
I hunt.

--------------------
http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com[/

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Edited by 505texan (20/03/13 05:09 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #227250 - 20/03/13 05:17 AM

Another super thread from lancaster!!

Check this out;

http://www.imageevent.com/willyp/firearmsalbums/usww1aefused1907winchester351sl

The bit about the Win SLR's being used as the conceptual ancestors of the US .30 Caliber carbine has been repeated a lot and makes sense. Tho not exactly light, they certainly have a handiness about them that makes their use as a "PDW" pretty second nature.

I've always thought a modernized .351 round in a sized-up Williams-designed Carbine would have earned the Carbine more respect than it got by some.

Regardless, the .351 was indeed used by the French in WW1 {as were some Model 8 .35's} and the .351 has also been stated to have been common in the prison systems in various States. I cannot figure if such guns were ever bought in bulk by the Federal system tho. Also, I have read that the .351's were used by BBS/USDA/APHIS/WS's personnel for wolf and coyote control from aircraft but I have not been able to drum up a USDA document proving it.

Great thread, lancaster.

The SLR has a very weird recoil system. Very interesting and sort of overengineered, but seemingly effective.

I am fascinated with the guns lancaster drums up in Europe.

Maybe some day he'll post a thread demonstrating the commonplace existence of the MP40 Maschinenpistole on Western European farmsteads....................



Keep it up, lanc!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #227253 - 20/03/13 05:48 AM

I think you are right about the 351 WSL being the best and most useful of the Winchester self loading rifle cartridges and especially for a PDW rifle. what I never understand is why Winchester choose a .351 bullet diameter when the .357 diameter for revolver bullets was arround for many years.
the real overengineered rifle is the Model 1910 because it was made to compete with the Remingtom Model 8 in 35 Rem but this was not realy possible for a blow back action.
I still looking for pics showing the Winchester self loading rifles for hunting outside of the united states. that the .351 was used for pest control seems possible to me. the Destroyer carbine in 9x23 Bergmann alias 9mm largo was used by spanish park rangers for shooting wolves and this cartridge dont developed more energy than a modern 9mm luger cartridge fired in a rifle.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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texan72
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #227261 - 20/03/13 06:17 AM

Lancaster, heres a site a friend of mine has lots of Winchester SL guys over there
might help you might not but here it is.
http://vintagesemiautorifle.proboards.com/index.cgi

--------------------
http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com[/

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


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texan72
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: texan72]
      #227270 - 20/03/13 07:34 AM

Quote:

I still looking for pics showing the Winchester self loading rifles for hunting outside of the united states



Don't have pics but do have a cool vintage ad from south America.
loosely translated :
"vd needs. a weapon for defense shooting game"
second line
"cartuchos need for any kind of weapon that has"
3rd line sort of translates
"get the red brand Rest assured that Precision will " something.
4th line
"sharpshooters always require red mark vd exijala also everywhere"



Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 08:29 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: texan72]
      #227315 - 21/03/13 04:13 AM

Here's mine - according to Feinstein's bill, it's an assault rifle.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (04/06/13 08:31 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #231019 - 09/06/13 08:40 PM

followup

it was found that the cases tend to stick into the magazin when loading the first round into the chamber. reason is the semi rimmed design give the rim of the upper cartridge the chance to hang into the extractor groove of the lower cartridge. this happen only when loading the first round the next rounds come flawless from the magazine because of the great force while auto loading. so the brass see the lathe again and I change the extractor goove like original ammo giving it a taper so the next case cant hang there anymore.





right old groove - left improoved design



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (09/06/13 10:40 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #231027 - 10/06/13 01:47 AM

If the groove isn't large enough, it can break the extractor - careful.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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dracb
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: texan72]
      #231032 - 10/06/13 06:38 AM


A more complete translation of the vintage Winchester advert.


Do you need an arm for defense, hunting or target shooting?

Do you need cartridges for whatever class of arm you possess?

Acquire them from the red W brand and have the certainty that they will give precision, security and without variation.

The good shooters always ask for the red W brand:You should also ask for it everywhere.

--------------------
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Igorrock
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: dracb]
      #232990 - 27/07/13 06:43 AM

IMO quite interesting text to read those who like older semi-auto rifles:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/07/23/semiauto-rifles-wwi/

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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: Igorrock]
      #329675 - 27/06/19 06:04 AM

with my carcano project http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=236683&an=0&page=0#Post236683 I came into the possession of 7,62x39 brass now and give it a try



7,62x39
8x39
9x39 ( iirc, a finish wildcat for some kind of action shooting with semi auto AK rifles)
9,5x39
10,75x39
resized with a 41 Mag die
my 401 WSL brass ( ex 414 Super Mag starline brass case)




the case is 1,5 mm shorter than it have to be for 401 WSL but the primer makes bang and the case eject. we will see what hapen after the case is realy fireformed.










when loaded the usual ring where the shoulder was before need an extra tour with the sizer die. in my experience this happen only with the first load and when the case is fire formed this crimp will not be seen again.



after firing the case comes out nicely fire formed




with the 6 round I had a malfunktion,


reason was probaly the 7,62 base is a little bit to big and need to be lathe turned
7,62x38 base 11,21mm
414 super magnum case 11,04mm




414 basic case loaded as 401 WSL and blown out 7,62x39 base turned down


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #329677 - 27/06/19 06:28 AM

Lancaster does the .401 headspace on its rim?
With a shorter length case wouldn't it have a real issue otherwise?


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lancaster
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Re: excuse me, I bought an assault rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #329685 - 27/06/19 01:58 PM

that is an excellent question, you know the Winchester self loading cartridges are only semi rimmed. with other semi rimmed cartridges like 7,65 Browning /32 ACP the small rim is enough to work in a revolver.
probably the size of the 7,62x39 was just good enough it stuck in the chamber of the Winchester 1910 on the right position. after turning the base down a little bit its semi rimmed again.
we will see how it goes in the future.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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