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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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tunofun
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Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Want to buy my first double...
      #20772 - 10/11/04 07:41 PM

GDay fellas, I want to buy a double real bad, help me! As I have never owned one before, what should I be looking out for? Do you have any suggestions for a resonably priced rifle in say .458WM, .416 Rigby or .375H&H?

It will be used for Buffalo here in Aust (I'm pretty lucky, I have a place to hunt them 45mins away!), I have a Win70 Safari in .458WM now and it works a treat but there is just something about a double isn't there? I think it's the romance of them, I want one!

On my travels around the net looking for a suitable rifle, I came across a Baikal Double (new) that used a jack screw to regulate the barrels, they sell for like $600US! Now if a quality manufacturer used a design like this, it would drop the price on a good double down considerably. Pretty versatile too. What do you guys think? BTW, don't think I'm considering buying one of the aformentioned Baikals...ooooh!

Thanks Guys.

--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: tunofun]
      #20778 - 10/11/04 10:39 PM

tunofun:
Kreighoff use a similar method to adjust the barrels on their doubles, a mate acquired one in 9.3x74 earlier this year, and has hunted pigs with it on a CPM operation. He sometimes dusts it off at the Micket Creek range, do you ever go there?

They are a bit more expensive than the Baikal though!!!

I have assumed you would prefer SxS to U/O, however those chamberings you suggest are not for rimmed or flanged cases, so SxS doubles would be uncommon locally.

John Miall brings in the Kreighoffs I believe, Hermann's Guns has Merkels if memory serves, or you could haunt the second-hand market for a good pommie double, not easy to do unless you're 'in the know'! 500Nitro wheels'n'deals a bit, you could send him a PM. If you want a new Searcy, the currency exchange rate is gradually moving in the right direction, but there is a waiting period and anything could happen!

Good luck!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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tunofun
.300 member


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: Marrakai]
      #20779 - 10/11/04 10:48 PM

Yeah, I get down to Mickett Creek every now and again.
As for those cartridges, they are only a thought, I really don't mind all that much at all to tell you the truth, as long as it is a .375 or bigger (I can't see the point in a .223 double!). A 500NE would be sweet, but how do you guys go getting ammo/cases etc in OZ? You obviously do!!

--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: tunofun]
      #20783 - 11/11/04 01:15 AM

Hey tun-o-fun!

I can understand why you want a double, just got one myself about 6 months ago. They are so perfect as a hunting weapon: compact, balanced, reliable and they don't have bits an pieces stiking out like handles and scopes. I think owners of doubles are also a breed apart, we enjoy a slower life and have different priorities.

I'm not sure if I'd want adjustable regulation. If done correctly by the factory your set for life.

Now that you have decided that you want one, there is no turning back. Heed the advice on this forum and you will do well.

Here is my only advice: if you buy a used gun, try to get a test target (6 shot is best) and if you can, shot it youself. A new gun will come with a 2 shot target.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39248
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: tunofun]
      #20785 - 11/11/04 02:25 AM

tunoffun

Welcome to NitroExpress.com

Give the businesses Marrakai mentioned and enquire about doubles with them.

As a rule if you want a rifle in .375 calibre or above you will be very lucky to find a "Nitro" rifle under $5000 and possibly multiples of this, new or second hand. A new Pedersoli double in .45/70 is $4950, but personally I wouldn't go for a .45/70 for buffalo. Would be a fun rifle though.

The Baikal you mentioned is an under and over I would think. I saw one advertised for A$800 this month. A side by side Baikal is to come out sooner or later and will cost about $2000 new (from reports).

A smaller calibre double would be great pig medicine too and good fun to start with if the others are too highly priced. Often they can be priced a little lower, sometimes not.

PS We do have bolt action shooters here too


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: tunofun]
      #20819 - 11/11/04 10:36 PM

Victorian Arms Supplies, North Melbourne have just picked up the Chapuis Agency. Their "African" S-S doubles are available in 300 WM, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and 470NE.

Contact details are on their website Vicarms

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tunofun
.300 member


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: NitroX]
      #20918 - 15/11/04 06:46 PM

GDay NitroX, and averyone else too! The Baikal is avaliable in SxS now and can be had for $629US, here is a site for them. Baikal SxS

It is really tempting to get one, but I won't do it to myself! I am looking at about $5k for my first double, I think that is reasonable enough. Afterall, one of my bolt guns cost more than that to put together!

Thanks for the help guys.


--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
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Loc: Texas
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: 470Rigby]
      #20931 - 16/11/04 08:50 AM

I own two Chapuis, one in 375 and one in 470 and highly reccomend them. The comparable rifle for the price is the Merkel and the Heym is a considerable step up in price.

There are a few advantages of the Chapuis over the Merkel:
1) Chapuis chambered in 375 is considerably less than their 470 - Merkels are all priced the same. (375's kick a lot less too!)
2) Chapuis will build the stock to any dimensions you want - Merkel charges about $1500 US for custom stock dimensions.
3) Chapuis has a Life-Time warranty.

I'm not associated Chapis, just believe they are an often over-looked "good value" in this price range of doubles.

There seems to be a lot of support on this forum for the Searcy's... and they look like good guns to me, but I've heard that they are hard to get your money back out of on the open market - Again - the opinions of this forum aside - and no one send me dirty messages for the Searcy comments... that's just what I learned from various dealers when considering the purcahse of one.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: new_guy]
      #20955 - 17/11/04 09:23 AM

I would never buy a double rifle in a rimless round like a 375 H&H or a 416 Rigby that is a recipe for disaster and I assure you that it will soon shoot off the face...

Personally I would get a Searcy PH model in 450-400 or 470..or the new 500/416 caliber....depending on my recoil tolerance.....

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: atkinson6]
      #20963 - 17/11/04 02:34 PM

Ray:
Ditto on the rimless chamberings, why do it? ..there are so many great rimmed or flanged cartridges around.

Athough some Aussies have bought Searcys, they are not as attractive an option over here because of the lousy currency exchange rate (although it is getting slowly better!) We can buy Merkels and Kreighoffs significantly cheaper than you guys (in relative terms), and there are still a few bargains to be had in used Brit doubles.

My recently-acquired Manton .470, for example, cost me considerably less than a plain-grade Searcy would have, it is just as accurate, and has excellent bores, pretty-good medium scroll engraving and better wood. ..cased with trade label, and came with dies, cases, a hundred Woodleighs, etc.

BTW, just how much beer IS Butch buying you, Ray!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Peterb
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Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: tunofun]
      #20964 - 17/11/04 03:20 PM

According to a St Petersburg, Russia friend, the Baikals used to be crap, but have improved to be strong, butt ugly. Unfortunately, they are not made in dangerous game calibers.

The early Searcy's were made off of shotgun frames. These may not keep their value as the current production which keep their value very well. PH model is $9500.

I agree with Ray, stay with rimmed cartridges. The 375H&H/416Rigby/458Winmag standard rounds are high pressure. The old Nitro cartridges are much better in a double.

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tunofun
.300 member


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: Peterb]
      #20967 - 17/11/04 11:53 PM

Yeah, guys, I agree with you on the rimmed cartridges, it's an ejection issue isn't it? The only reason I would go with a .458WM or a .375H&H is because I have dies and loading gear for them already. The .470 is probly the way to go though. Nitro Express just sounds cool too!

I don't know about you guys, but engraving and select grade walnut etc is a waste for me, that's not to say I don't like it or would wreck it but I get into some pretty bad bush at times (marrakai will testify to what it can get like up here!) and it would only get damaged and degrade the rifle. Is there a company that builds 'utility' grade doubles? Like one with no engraving, gold plated fanciness and $2k worth of timber on it? I still wan't good quality metalwork and stock/metal fit etc but not the 'ornamental' stuff that is on most of the rifles I have seen/been looking at? I wan't to shoot it, not look at it in a display!

As for new guns, that is out of the question! Even for a lousy .30-06 or 9.3 you are looking at $10k! I cannot afford that much. I already have rifles in those cals anyway. This is a dilemma because there are not a real lot of secondhand doubles on the market. The gunsmith I use got hold of a beauty .450 a few months ago for a few hundred dollars! It had a cracked stock but he made a new one for it now and it looks great. It's an old english one (not sure of brand but it is engraved to the sh1t house!) and has perfect bores, he recons it has had less than 100 rounds through it! I have been pestering him to sell it to me but he won't have a bar of it! Damn! hehehe

What am I ever to do?

--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: tunofun]
      #20977 - 18/11/04 05:01 AM

tunofun
Take a look at the Chapuis or a Krieghoff. They both make "working" doubles. Also the 9,3x74R's are much lower priced that the big bores. I have a Chapuis 9,3x74R that I really like. However, if I was hunting Australian buff I would want at least my 450/400 or my 450 No2, so in new made double the 470 is the best way to go.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: NE450No2]
      #20979 - 18/11/04 05:19 AM

I don't think you can find a 470 for under $10,000 but the 375 can be had for $7,500 , go figure?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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tunofun
.300 member


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: tunofun]
      #21014 - 19/11/04 10:49 PM

GDay fellas, well, I have given up hope... this is from century arms in Aust;

Re .470 we are upgrading website a db .470 Manton, plain rifle top lever with hammers for US$7000,00 .will be offered. The calibre you want is the most wanted of all db rifles, a good hammerless is worth around US$20,000.00 for an ordinary up to double that for a very nice top English used rifle
CenturyArms.

I am going to stick with my bolt .458 for a few years yet!

--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
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Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: tunofun]
      #21190 - 23/11/04 09:18 AM

" Yeah, guys, I agree with you on the rimmed cartridges, it's an ejection issue isn't it? "

Good Question... I believe it was John Taylor who wrote that - in theory, a belted or rimless cartridge stood a greater chance of the ejector slipping past the rim (or lack thereof).

Out of couriosity, has anyone ever experienced this?

Can anyone cite a doccumented occurance of such happening?

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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AussieMike
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Reged: 01/09/04
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Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: new_guy]
      #21221 - 23/11/04 09:20 PM

I've got 3 doubes shooting rimless rounds and have never had a problem. the Westley Richards system is the best, but it should be considering the cost compared to a Merkel etc.

Ejectors are a must as it is slow to get cases out by hand.

mike

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
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Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: AussieMike]
      #21235 - 24/11/04 02:42 AM

I shoot 375 H&H rimless, but am considering having it converted to rimmed. Talk to JJ Perdeaou and he said it's an easy conversion.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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new_guy
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Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: bonanza]
      #21237 - 24/11/04 03:01 AM

i didn't realize that the Rimless chambering would "clean up" the belted version.

Presumeably, then, you've never had an ejection problem with your H&H?

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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bonanza
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Loc: South Carolina
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: new_guy]
      #21245 - 24/11/04 06:15 AM

Never had an ejection problem, but the conversion is to just cut the breech to accept the rim and replace the extractor with one for the rimmed. I even think the gun can still shoot the rimless simply by replacing the extractor.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: bonanza]
      #21275 - 24/11/04 01:21 PM

What case are you using? The flanged will not clean up the belted mag case. It is smaller and the belt will not clean up.

The 458 will clean up to the 450#2 or the 450 3 1/4 but not the .375.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: bonanza]
      #21290 - 24/11/04 08:09 PM

I would never presume to argue with J.J. He does all of my double rifle work and is damned good. I'm just as confused as Mick is though.

The .375 Flanged Magnum has a head diameter of .517" and the Belted Rimless is .532" (at the belt). They're not even the same case length. The Flanged Magnum is 2.940" and the Belted Rimless is 2.850". Simply enlarging the rim seat to .572" to accomodate the Flanged rim would not deal with the length problem and would leave the first .220" of the Flanged Magnum case unsupported in the chamber (the distance from the breech face to the front edge of the belt of the rimless). The Flanged Magnum reamer won't clean up the Belted Rimless chamber. Bonanza, are you sure that you understood J.J. correctly?

As to the question concerning reliability of extraction with rimless chambered doubles, I don't know if Westley Richards invented the current system or not, but they certainly pioneered building doubles in rimless calibers. They built quite a few and there doesn't seem to be a collection of stories from the old days about failures. I've always heard that their system was reliable.

I avoid rimless chambered doubles and as a result have only shot two. Oddly enough, both were Westley Richards, a Gold Name boxlock in 9.3X62 and a droplock in .318 WR. With the 9.3, failures to extract approached 50% with Norma ammo due to the extractor pawl slipping over the rim. RWS was much better, but we still got failures to extract every trip to the range. This rifle had been gone over in London by Paul Roberts specifically for this problem the year before. Only had one range session with the .318 and only late production original Kynoch was fired. As I recall, there were one or two failures to extract and a similar number of failures to eject.
-----------------------------------



--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
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Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #21299 - 25/11/04 01:50 AM

How old were these Westleys?

would you say that they had been well cared for, or were these the results of normal wear and tear that resulted in parts needing to be replaced?

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: Peterb]
      #21303 - 25/11/04 03:00 AM

In reply to:

The early Searcys were made off of shotgun frames . These may not keep their value as the current production which keep their value very well. PH model is $9500.




Lets make one thing very clear! Only Searcys made back in the late 80s, and early 90s were made on modified Browning BSS actions. They were re-heat treated, and had a third fastener added. They have held their value well, though they are not pritty. The origenal price was only $3000US, and they sell, today, in the $5000US range. The NEW B. Searcy of today, are made on his own actions, made from scratch. If taken care of, the new ones sell for about the price of a new one, because of the "NO WAITING PERIOD" for one to be built. Addtionally, very few are on the market, because most who buy a made to fit double, rarely sell them. When the new ones are 50 yrs old, they will sell at a premium as well.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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new_guy
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Re: Want to buy my first double... [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #21305 - 25/11/04 04:37 AM

Ah, but what would be interesting is the .500/.416 necked down to .375.

That would clean up the original belted chambering and would make for some pretty interesting velocities (over the 375 flanged) at attractive pressures.

Anyone interested? We'd only need one reamer! Bet JJ would take it on.


--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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