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Ingwe
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Reged: 08/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: Texas
Mountain Lion to Bait?
      #16617 - 12/07/04 07:09 PM

I was just speculating the other day on whether it might be possible to hunt mountain lion the same way leopards are hunted with bait and blind. Do you all think that one could get a lion to come to bait? I bet you could... Has anyone ever heard of this being done?

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Taos
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Reged: 09/05/04
Posts: 169
Loc: Nevada, U.S.A.
Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: Ingwe]
      #16627 - 13/07/04 02:05 AM

I have never heard of it being done but don't know why it could not be done. My son last year in Ca. told me he found a dead black bear and on top of it was a lion with a hole through both shoulders. They have WAY too many lions in Ca. and no seasons on them.

It is an interesting thought and needs to be tried. I just may make the attempt in the near future.


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buckeyeshooter
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Reged: 04/02/04
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Loc: ohio, USA
Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: Ingwe]
      #16637 - 13/07/04 08:49 AM

I would bet that a cougar could be baited. But, I think the bigger question would be -- would it be legal in your state. With all the fuss over baiting black bear, just imagine how the animal fanatics would fuss over shooting kitty when it comes for chow!

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Ingwe
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Reged: 08/07/04
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Loc: Texas
Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: buckeyeshooter]
      #16639 - 13/07/04 09:55 AM

Yes it would be legal here. In Texas there is no shortage of them and they are not classified as game animals. They are thankfully classified as vermin and so they may be hunted whenever and however we want. I have never heard of it being done this way, I have only ever heard of them being tracked and treed by hounds. The animal lovers would probably scream, but that is no surprise as they are already screaming over the fact that they are hunted with dogs. In fact, they would scream no matter how we hunted them, even if we were only allowed to hunt them barefooted, with rocks or spears. For to them, the real issue is not at all "how" we hunt animals, but rather that we "do" hunt animals. So, to try to keep them from screaming by limiting our methods would be utterly futile. The only way to shut them up would be to not hunt at all, and for me this is not an option. We just have to be diligent in communicating with our legislators, and try to persuade them not to buckle to all that screaming.

Anyway - enough politics - let us discuss lion hunting. I am positive that they could be hunted exactly like leopard. What will we use for bait? Their mainstay is deer, but it would not be legal to use that for bait, so we would have to use something else. Perhaps feral hog? They exist in part of the lion's range, but not all. Or maybe just go to your local rancher and purchase a few calves, goats, or sheep? And how should the bait be set? I suppose it should be secured to a tree, provided that you are in a part of Texas that has trees. They are numerous in west Texas where there are no trees, and the bait would have to be placed in some other way. You would want to protect the bait in some way from vultures and coyotes. In this way I would not be surprised if you could get on them at first or last light. Hmm..

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2399
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Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: Ingwe]
      #16647 - 13/07/04 11:31 AM

I'm not sure it would work. MT lions aren't carrion feeders. Even their own kills they tend to leave after a day or two.

On the other hand they will come in to calls. So if a lion was in the immediate area and had no competition they might go to a fresh kill.

You would need a source of fresh bait that they would eat. Their favorite food is deer and you will find that using a fresh killed deer for bait is probably just plain illegal. Then multiple deer kills would increase your jeopardy by violating bag limits.



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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: DoubleD]
      #16832 - 17/07/04 11:10 AM

I've hunted for 49 years here in prime lion country and have never seen mountain lions come to carrion or even recent kills. This doesn't mean they never do, just that it is not a common practice.

DoubleD is right on in my opinion!

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Ingwe
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Reged: 08/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: Texas
Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: luv2safari]
      #16842 - 17/07/04 02:57 PM

Hey luv2,

I remember reading an old Capstick story once where he bet a guy something like 5 or 10 thousand dollars that a jag could be successfully hunted without dogs. He was on an island off Brazil and he only had a few days. On the way to the island him and his guide picked up a couple of piglets from a farmer. They tied a piglet to a bush, pierced its ear, and tied a string to the ear. They climbed into their machan and the guide was holding the other end of the string. He would tug it periodically to make the piglet squeal. The guide was bitten by a very poisonous snake, and Peter had to rush him back to camp for medical treatment. He miraculously survived, but Peter had to go back a couple days later to try it again, this time alone. He had to use the 2nd piglet as the first had been taken by the jag. He waited and at about 2 AM he did kill the jag, and it was huge.

Maybe we should be thinking in terms like this as far as baiting a lion. I know of many instances of lions eating animals out of leghold traps, so I am sure they would be attracted to live bait, if not dead.

I will be going to west Texas later in the year for Aoudad and Corsican rams, hogs, and bobcat. There are also a lot of lions on the property, and I have permission to kill one if I see it. The only thing though, is that they are rarely seen. I am seriously considering picking up a couple lambs or piglets on the way and trying this out in honor of my late friend whom I sure miss. It may not work for me on my limited time, but I am sure that lions could be hunted in this way.

Now then, in regard to the question of whether or not lions will "scavenge," or "eat carrion," or however one wants to phrase it, I put this question to a good friend of mine last night who is a retired Alaska and New Mexico professional hunter, and now lives about 20 miles west of Truth or Cosequences, NM. He tells me that lions certainly do like their fresh stuff, but will absolutely not pass up something that they find, especially if times are a little tough, like they are in NM right now due to their long drought. He also told me that if you can find an old lion kill, you can freshen it up and they will come right to it. He says they are especially fond of dead calves or fawns that have been aborted, when they can find them. He says he has seen them get into stuff that would make you sick at your stomach to even look at. He told me that he has heard many times where a person will say, "lions are hunters, not scavengers," but that this is completely false. He said that a lot of people think the same thing about African lions, and that is equally false. He also pointed out that they will even eat other lions, given the chance. He did say that a lot of people do not realize that they will feed on a carcass, because few hunt them in this way, as it is illegal in most states. I sure am glad I live in Texas. He also pointed out that there would be no reason for a law to exist like that if lions would not come to a carcass. I thought that to be a particularly good point. He also told me that if a person wanted to set up a bait, that the hardest and most crucial part is to locate some place where you know there to be lion in the area. He also says that if someone does not believe that a lion will scavenge, go to Lobo, Texas, in the Big Bend area, and look up an old lion hunter there named Blackie Woods, and hear him out. He told me a lot of other things, too, but I am trying not to make this post any longer than it already is. I will admit that I have no personal experience on this matter, but I have learned to trust my friend, and I know he knows an awful lot about lions.

At any rate, even if they won't come to a dead bait, I am sure they would come to a live bait. I hope I can see one come to some kind of bait first hand later in the year.

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2399
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: Ingwe]
      #16846 - 18/07/04 12:55 AM

I defer to the gentleman with the greater experience. His vast experience reinforces my limited observations.

Perhaps the most relevant point he has made is not that the cat will come to bait , but the cat might come to bait if he is in the area

Most of my lion encounters were made when I didn't know they were there. Mainly when I was calling coyotes.

I have also had bobcats and coyotes killed in traps by lions.

I had this happen once at a site where something was killing lambs. We couldn't tell what was killing the lambs, but were seeing lots of coyote sign on and around the carcass'. I set several traps leading into the carcass pile and caught two coyotes. Both coyotes were killed in the traps and ripped up. Big cat tracks were found at the site. The carcass pile was untouched. Several more lambs were killed that night and a couple of the carcass' were hidden in tall weeds.

The following night the sheep herder caught the lion in his head lights on another fresh lamb kill. The lion didn't try to run off, so it died.

In this instance the lion was showing a preference for live fresh caught bait.

I have had several bobcats killed in traps by lion. (The bobcat another animal reluctant to go to bait). This appeared to be a Lion finding the bobcat in passing. I have also had one bocat kill another bobcat in the same fashion.

On bait piles used for bears and coyotes I have seen cat-lion and bobcat- tracks, but it never appeared that they came to eat. The just passed by. Coyotes will come to carrion in good times and bad.

The gentleman also made the point that is not lost on me, that in hard times they will visit carrion and feed at opportunity. But again his point is they have to be in the area of the carrion and does make sense. When there is nothing else to eat...

That being said I will stand by my original statement.
In reply to:

I'm not sure it would work. MT lions aren't carrion feeders. Even their own kills they tend to leave after a day or two.


That's not to say they won't eat carrion, they will.

I think if I were after a lion and I knew a lion was in the area. I would use calls. Lambs, kid goat or fawn bleats in the spring. Standard old rabbit any other time. Kinda like Capsticks lamb in a plastic tube.



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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
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Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: DoubleD]
      #16879 - 19/07/04 09:05 AM

I don't know about other parts of the country, but in my area lions tend to kill a deer by choice and feed on it for a day or so, then move on to another fresh kill.

I think that the act of the kill is as important as satisfying their hunger. An old sheep herder I met when deer hunting when I was 14 told me about a lion he saw chase a deer right through his herd of sheep, not the least bit interested in the sheep. He did say that he lost ewes and lambs to lions from time to time, also. I've seen a number of lion kills on lambs and calves over the years, but a far greater ratio of kills have been on deer. We have a lot of livestock and fewer deer on the range as time goes on here in my State. Lions just seem to prefer venison...me too!

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Ingwe
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Reged: 08/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: Texas
Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: luv2safari]
      #17151 - 25/07/04 09:28 AM

luv2,

I think you are right about lions' preference for venison. Here is an interesting article I ran across. I thought it was interesting that the Park Rangers seemingly had little difficulty in catching the lions with road kill venison, in an area so full of live animals:

2 Yosemite mountain lions killed

By MICHAEL MELLO
BEE STAFF WRITER

Published: October 29, 2003, 06:12:40 AM PST

Yosemite National Park biologists killed two mountain lions by injection early Tuesday after the cats behaved aggressively around people, including a group of children, rangers reported.
The lions, an adult and yearling, both females, had been spotted sev- eral times this month in the Curry Village section of Yosemite Valley, a popular recreation spot.

"They had started to habitually be in close proximity to humans and human dwellings, and showed no fear," park spokeswoman Deb Schweizer said.

At one point last week, biologists saw the lions stalking children.

"There was an incident over at Curry Village where there was a group of students in their cabin being kids -- they were making a lot of high-pitched noise," Schweizer said.

According to park biologists, the high-pitched noises are similar to those made by the lions' natural prey.

The lions "heard the kids' voices and moved in. One of them was in a slinking position, moving forward ... and crept within 30 meters (100 feet) of the group," Schweizer said. "That's what made us decide we had to act."

The cats probably came to the Curry Village area to prey on raccoons that had fattened themselves on food scraps left by tourists. Park officials became concerned after visitors reported that the cats showed little fear of humans.

"One of the things we don't know, but speculate, is ... (the yearling's) mother might have been bringing her into Curry Village, where there is pretty easy hunting, to help her hone her hunting skills."

Park employees tried to coerce the cats to leave Curry Village, firing beanbags and rubber bullets, but the cats stayed.

Monday night, biologists set a steel mesh trap, baiting it with the meat of a deer that had been struck and killed by a car. By early Tuesday, both cats had been trapped and put down with injections.

Schweizer stressed that lion incidents in the park are rare.

"There's never been an instance where a mountain lion has attacked a human in modern history" in the park, she said. But, "There was a level of urgency about the level of safety in Curry Village that we simply couldn't ignore."

Bee staff writer Michael Mello can be reached at 578-2235 or mmello@modbee.com.


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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Loc: Idaho
Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: Ingwe]
      #17247 - 27/07/04 05:49 AM

Only in very cold climates and in winter feed grounds do Lions come back to a kill, these are Lions raised on elk feeding grounds....

In the desert SW it just doesn't happen, but never say never there may be an exception or demented Lion out there somewhere that will....

As to california Lions who knows, hell they jump on and eat people, they have lost all fear of man as have the bears and good for them..Any bunch of people that would stop all hunting then whine about losing dogs, kids and old folks, begged for it, it was bound to happen and they were forewarned many times before the laws were passed.........


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Ingwe
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Reged: 08/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: Texas
Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: atkinson6]
      #17255 - 27/07/04 07:50 AM

In reply to:

As to california Lions who knows, hell they jump on and eat people, they have lost all fear of man as have the bears and good for them..Any bunch of people that would stop all hunting then whine about losing dogs, kids and old folks, begged for it, it was bound to happen and they were forewarned many times before the laws were passed.........





Boy, could we actually be so fortunate as to have all the green weenies in CA eaten by lions and bears, placing that great state back in the hands of the normal people?

I was talking to a good friend of mine the other day who is from the Monterrey region of Mexico. I know there to be very high lion populations in this area, so I asked him about the panteras there. (He speaks no English). Anyway, his eyes lit up and grew large as he began to tell me that basically they are up to their eyeballs in them. Then he emphatically began telling me a story of how one time he was riding his bike along a mountain road, and his dog was with him, running along right behind the bike. A lion suddenly came from nowhere and killed the dog. He was telling me also that they have a real problem over there with lions in their garbage dumps which are always located around the outer edges of the towns, and I believe him. I guess if a lion will so enthusiastically hit a Mexican garbage dump, their palate cannot possibly be all that delicate. Anyway, he tells me that the way they hunt the lions over there is by staking a cabrito in an area known to be "hot," and setting an ambush position. He even invited me to go there with him and hunt them in this way. He said for me not to try to bring any of my own firearms into the country, but that I could use his father's 30.06. He says that you don't really have to do anything to get the cabrito to make noise, they just kind of bleat constantly on their own. He says that you will nearly always have your lion within three days. I believe I will have to take him up on this offer, and I believe that I will also try this method later in the year when I go to west Texas. Although, with all the instances of lions eating dogs and eating coyotes out of traps, I am beginning to wonder if maybe they like dog nearly as much as venison, and that maybe I should consider simply going to the local dog pound and picking up all the free bait I will ever need. Hmm.. How's that for political incorrectness? I suppose that if I had Lassie for bait, I wouldn't have to deal with coyotes trying to come to the bait before the lion..

...to be continued

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Learn from other people's mistakes - you can't live long enough to make them all yourself.


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Siskiyous6
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Reged: 21/11/04
Posts: 69
Loc: Del Norte COunty, CA
Re: Mountain Lion to Bait? [Re: atkinson6]
      #21187 - 23/11/04 09:08 AM

Lions are a growing menace here in CA. The Dept. of fish and Game actually kill smore of them using deprivation permits than hunters used to take when we had a season for them.

We turned a noble big game trophy into a pest species. What a country.

I don't think you can bait them. Dogs work well, but keeping,training, and using dogs requires a huge commitment and lots of work. Then when you use them a bunch of ignorant people act like you are taking the easy way out.



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