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HuntingSchneider
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Loc: Tamworth, NSW

.303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it?
#211724 - 29/06/12 03:05 PM

I have recently acquired an old Mauser rifle in .303 British.

It has- 30" octagonal barrel.
- An "Afrika" style stock, where the wood goes about 80" of the barrel.
- Military rear sight.
- Pistol grip instead of straight military style grip.
- Most interestingly a bayonet lug.

It looks like it has been used as a target rifle. There seems to have been a sight screwed onto the left hand side of the stock and a sling swivel has been attached to the floor plate.

It was made in Suhl in 1928.

Marked under wood as 7.6x56.

The numbers all match. Bolt, action, floorplate etc.

Bore is still pretty good. May well be better still when I finish cleaning it.

Could it have been made for "Sir" when he was sent to the continent and didn't want a Lee Speed? He opted for a Mauser instead. Hence the bayonet lug.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

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Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

Edited by CptCurl (12/11/12 02:53 AM)

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Rule303
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: HuntingSchneider]
#211728 - 29/06/12 04:19 PM

Bayonet lug is for when Sir misses the lion and it gets a bit close.

I have no knowledge about this. Was wonderin if you have found what bayonet fits. If the Mauser bayonet fits then probably not made for an English officer. Just speculation on my part.

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HuntingSchneider
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Reged: 02/04/06
Posts: 381
Loc: Tamworth, NSW

Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is [Re: Rule303]
#211729 - 29/06/12 04:30 PM

Quote:

Bayonet lug is for when Sir misses the lion and it gets a bit close.

I have no knowledge about this. Was wonderin if you have found what bayonet fits. If the Mauser bayonet fits then probably not made for an English officer. Just speculation on my part.

I was informed that it was for a 1907 pattern Enfield bayonet, but have not been able to verify that for myself yet.

.

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500Nitro
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is [Re: HuntingSchneider]
#211731 - 29/06/12 04:38 PM

That "stock" looks a bit home made to me.

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Igorrock
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: HuntingSchneider]
#211733 - 29/06/12 04:53 PM

Quote:

It has- 30" octagonal barrel.
- An "Afrika" style stock, where the wood goes about 80" of the barrel.
- Military rear sight.
- Pistol grip instead of straight military style grip.
- Most interestingly a bayonet lug.

Very nice rifle ! It´s very early (1901-1903) "Special African Model". The rear sight is a civil ramp mod, not military. So the pistol grip is correct stock model too. I suppose that Mauser Suhler retailer named Stogos has made some custom works (eg. bayonet stud) to that rifle and then sold it.

Quote:

It looks like it has been used as a target rifle. There seems to have been a sight screwed onto the left hand side of the stock and a sling swivel has been attached to the floor plate.

Could be possible. Is there any marks (holes etc.) in receiver ? But aperture sight was quite common for hunting purposes in those older times too. Here is some older british dioter mods: http://rifleman.org.uk/PH_Service_sights.htm

The reason for the rear sling swivel stud´s new place could be an idea to get long barrels muzzle lower when carrying the rifle in bush....like older Martini Henry -style.

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Edited by Igorrock (30/06/12 12:57 AM)

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Loc: From the Kalahari to the USA

Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: Igorrock]
#211739 - 29/06/12 07:10 PM

Nice and unique rifle.I had an Otto Bock made 9.3x62 built on a Waffenfabrik Mauser action that had the exact (Crown) StmG and (Crown) B and (Crown) U proofs on it

Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (29/06/12 09:56 PM)

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Igorrock
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
#211740 - 29/06/12 07:20 PM

Quote:

I had an Otto Bock made 9.3x63 built on a Waffenfabrik Mauser action

This caliber really exists but has seen very seldom. Could you take some pictures of that ammo ?

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dons
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: HuntingSchneider]
#211744 - 29/06/12 09:24 PM

If the barrel is marked 7.6x54, isn't this the Russian Mosin-Nagant round? Not quite the same as the 303 British, or are they interchangeable. Interesting rifle.

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: Igorrock]
#211745 - 29/06/12 09:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I had an Otto Bock made 9.3x63 built on a Waffenfabrik Mauser action

This caliber really exists but has seen very seldom. Could you take some pictures of that ammo ?

Sorry that should be 9.3x62 :typo on my part!

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Igorrock
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: dons]
#211749 - 29/06/12 10:11 PM

It could be .303 if 7,6 mm tells barrels rifle land diameter. In early m98 Mauser´s the difference between land and groove diameter used to be aprc. 0.25 mm so the groove should be 7,85-7,9 mm.
In C.I.P -standard the case lenght is marked 56,4 mm but it´s near enough to 54 mm.

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Huvius
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: Igorrock]
#211751 - 29/06/12 11:20 PM

Interesting rifle.
Here is my guess:
This looks like a Mauser built up in period to be similar to an African model.
The barrel, trigger guard and stocking are all Stogos style although the long forend I havent seen on a Stogos marked gun before but I am sure could be ordered that way.
The holes in the stock IMO are from mounting a torch (flashlight) on the side. Although the caliber and barrel length would preclude this gun from being used in thick bush, it would be an ideal rifle for shooting hyenas at night time with that light mounted to it. The bayonet would be useful if things got too close.
Then again, it could be a military match rifle pattern...

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Edited by Huvius (29/06/12 11:28 PM)

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: Huvius]
#211757 - 30/06/12 03:05 AM

"STOGOS" was the trademark of the short-lived Stotz & Goessel, Erffastr.26, Suhl, company. They called themselves "gun factory,export, wholesale". Johann Stotz and Leopold Goessel founded the company in 1923. Partnership dissolved 1927, sole owner Stotz. Finallly failed in 1930, remaining stocks taken over by Wilhelm Knopf. So the rifle is not pre-WW1, but made between 1923 and 1927. It is made on a scrubbed WW1 Gewehr 98 action, as usual for the 1920s.
As to the chambering, only a chamber cast will tell what it really is. IMHO the most likely candidate is the 7.65 Mauser, originally adopted 1889 by Belgium and Turkey, but now known as 7.65x53 Argentine. The actual max case length of this number is 53.5mm, so it was often called x54 too. The rifle may well have been made for some Belgian bound for the Congo, intended to be used both against beast or man, using the standard issue rifle cartridge.

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Igorrock
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: kuduae]
#211758 - 30/06/12 03:35 AM

kuduae, what you say about this four digit serial number ? Is it Stogos own ?
If rifles real caliber is not rimmed the magazine should be normal, not slanted witch is quite easy to determine.
Rifles stock is very similar (with some later made conversions) as seen page 117 on Jon Speed´s Mauser book. So maybe Stotz & Goessel has advisedly build this rifle look alike real African Mauser.

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HuntingSchneider
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Reged: 02/04/06
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: Igorrock]
#211759 - 30/06/12 03:41 AM

Magazine is not slanted, but it is a rimmed chambering. A .303 chambers, but I have not fired anything yet. I may do a cast before I go any further.

.

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kuduae
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: Igorrock]
#211760 - 30/06/12 04:59 AM

Quote:

kuduae, what you say about this four digit serial number ? Is it Stogos own ?
If rifles real caliber is not rimmed the magazine should be normal, not slanted witch is quite easy to determine.
Rifles stock is very similar (with some later made conversions) as seen page 117 on Jon Speed´s Mauser book. So maybe Stotz & Goessel has advisedly build this rifle look alike real African Mauser.

Yes, IMHO it is STOGO's serial number.
You may find similar suhl made rifles stocked to 10cm = 4" from the muzzle in other ca.1930 catalogs also, for example the Burgsmueller mail order, page 61, and the WUM export, page 132, ones.

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: kuduae]
#211761 - 30/06/12 05:16 AM

Sorry Gents. I made a typo. It is 7.6x56. Not 54

.

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Oldbrit
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: HuntingSchneider]
#211762 - 30/06/12 05:59 AM

This is only a thought but if it will chamber a 303 why not try firing a case forming load* and see how the case measures up afterwards.

*I use a primed case loaded with 8 grs of Bullseye, a tuft of Dacron, top up the case with semolina and seal it with a paraffin wax plug (no bullet of course).

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2152hq
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: Oldbrit]
#211764 - 30/06/12 07:34 AM

If the '07 SMLE Bayonet were to fit.. Here are some measurements off of a SMLE MkI* (approx 1906) nose cap/bayonet attachment lug.

The muzzle round diameter .650" (SMLE doesn't use the bbl itself, but a separate lug below it on the nose cap)
The rear lug width .490
Rear ug channel width .240
Distance from the back face of the rear lug to the rear edge of the round muzzle portion 3.90"

The SMLE Bayonet Lug does not have that small cut (locking cut) on one side seen in the photo of the rifle posted.

My guess is not a 98 bayonet as they don't have a ring mount up front, just a U shaped guide.
Perhaps one of the pre-98 Mauser styles does have the ring that would encompass the barrel muzzle and also have the grip locking mechanism.
My knowledge of bayonets is about exhausted in what I've posted.

Perhaps it just a mount for an already mentioned light.
Way out front and on the bottom of the bbl seems like a good spot for it, but again just a guess.

Just some thoughts. Very interesting rifle.

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: 2152hq]
#211804 - 01/07/12 05:52 AM

Quote:

If the '07 SMLE Bayonet were to fit.. Here are some measurements off of a SMLE MkI* (approx 1906) nose cap/bayonet attachment lug.

The muzzle round diameter .650" (SMLE doesn't use the bbl itself, but a separate lug below it on the nose cap)
The rear lug width .490
Rear ug channel width .240
Distance from the back face of the rear lug to the rear edge of the round muzzle portion 3.90"

The SMLE Bayonet Lug does not have that small cut (locking cut) on one side seen in the photo of the rifle posted.

My guess is not a 98 bayonet as they don't have a ring mount up front, just a U shaped guide.
Perhaps one of the pre-98 Mauser styles does have the ring that would encompass the barrel muzzle and also have the grip locking mechanism.
My knowledge of bayonets is about exhausted in what I've posted.

Perhaps it just a mount for an already mentioned light.
Way out front and on the bottom of the bbl seems like a good spot for it, but again just a guess.

Just some thoughts. Very interesting rifle.

I'll have to do some measurements to see.

I don't think the bayonet lug was for a light though.

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Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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Tentman
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: HuntingSchneider]
#211868 - 02/07/12 06:35 AM

Very unlikey the lug was for a light, when shooting over open sights at night you need the light source from behind to illuminate the sights.

40 or more years ago my father and I spent many winter nights "defending" our ewes (sheep) against wild pigs, which eat the lambs as they are born. Dad used a sporterised No 1 mk III* Lee enfield, my job was to hold the light, and if we both got it right it was very effective.

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Story
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Re: .303 Mauser '98. Octagonal 30" with bayonet lug. What is it? [Re: Tentman]
#213811 - 01/08/12 12:52 AM

Quote:

Very unlikey the lug was for a light, when shooting over open sights at night you need the light source from behind to illuminate the sights.

The lug near the muzzle is for a bayonet. Since those mounting holes in the stock are right around the left side of the magazine, wouldn't a period flashlight then illuminate by the rear and front sights?

Quote:

40 or more years ago my father and I spent many winter nights "defending" our ewes (sheep) against wild pigs, which eat the lambs as they are born. Dad used a sporterised No 1 mk III* Lee enfield, my job was to hold the light, and if we both got it right it was very effective.

Sounds like how nighttime targets where engaged by pairs of tanks, at the end of the white light searchlight era.

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