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vagrouser
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Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 104
Loc: usa
H&H 450/400 2 3/8"
      #211110 - 19/06/12 03:25 AM

Hi all,

Waiting for some better weather to get some outside shots, but wanted to share these pics. The resolution is crappy, and doesn't begin to do justice to the crispness of the engraving, etc.. I'll see if I can correct that later.

H&H 450/400 2 3/8" top lever, rebounding back action hammer gun with stalking safeties c. 1890. Stephen Ambrose at the London office has been incredibly responsive and helpful concerning my inquiries. A copy of the ledger page is included-interestingly the LOP is listed as "not finished." He said this is unusual and while he couldn't confirm, speculated that the Silver's pad is original to the rifle. Given its appearance, I tend to agree. There was a work order tag in the case showing the post 1960 Bruton St address-he confirmed the rifle was returned to them in 1978 to auction at Sotheby's.

I don't have a scale, but it is a lithe, great handling little rifle and I look forward to getting it up and running. Will follow up with a report.





















Edited by CptCurl (27/06/12 09:07 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211111 - 19/06/12 03:28 AM



Very nice indeed.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: 500Nitro]
      #211114 - 19/06/12 04:04 AM

I have the younger sister of your rifle. Shoots well and is a great great killer.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post195796

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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DarylS
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: bonanza]
      #211116 - 19/06/12 04:28 AM

What a treasure! Beautiful! Did the mould come with it?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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vagrouser
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Reged: 06/01/09
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Loc: usa
Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: bonanza]
      #211117 - 19/06/12 04:29 AM

Bonanza,
I remember reading about your rifle and enjoyed the pics of it in Africa. These smaller rifles are neat as well and practical for hunting here in NA.

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vagrouser
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Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 104
Loc: usa
Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211130 - 19/06/12 07:11 AM

Hi Daryl and thank you. I'm very happy with it. Unfortunately, no mould came with it. If it proves to be a shooter, I'm inclined to have Mike Rowe make one up along with some other tools. The case and loading card would indicate that it left H&H with such and it would be nice to "complete" it.

I'm perturbed at the poor quality of these pictures and will get some better ones up at some point. Just wanted to share.

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TH44
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211134 - 19/06/12 08:16 AM

Vagrouser - Many thanks for your sharing such a beauty, the engraving is certainly "best quality"

The extended top strap is a nice touch on a light rifle, as is the side support for the barrels on the standing breech

I too found Holland & Holland extremely helpful in finding (and sending) historical details

Looking forward to the new pics!

TH44

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bonanza
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211135 - 19/06/12 08:30 AM

Holland and Holland was helpful also. Mine was done in 1896.

What's the ballistics for the 450/400 2 3/8"?

Probably was loaded with 300 grain paper patch.

Hawks makes some soft copper thin jacket bullets that are good for BPE rifles.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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vagrouser
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Reged: 06/01/09
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: bonanza]
      #211142 - 19/06/12 09:52 AM

I need to look at Graham Wright's and the Hoyem books again, but pretty sure 230gr was the original weight (although as I understand it, others have been able to achieve good accuracy with heavier bullets). Re paper patching, I just got a copy of a cotemporaneus catalogue (1887-1890) reprint from Cornell and there is mention of Holland's semi-smooth rifling (which this appears to have). They purport reduced fouling and no need for PPing, describing a grooved lead bullet.
I have a couple of factory rounds and I'm inclined to pull one to see.
I'll be digging more into this and will share what I learn. Several people here have a lot of experience with this cartridge and have been kind to share their wisdom.

Back to TH44's comments- this was the first occasions I've had to contact H&H although have traded emails with Simon Clode and a lady at WR in the past. I've been pretty impressed with the attention and timeliness of their responses. Clearly this is an old rifle and I'm not a player for any of their new offerings. Just the same, I was left with the impression that my ?s were equally important. Pretty cool of them.

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vagrouser
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Reged: 06/01/09
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Loc: usa
Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211145 - 19/06/12 11:13 AM

Here's a page out of the 1887-1890 H&H catalogue (Cornell publications reprint). It shows a 230gr grooved bullet. This rifle would appear to be 55 Guineas vs the new-fangled hammerless Royal at 60...


And a few more pics of the locks and mortises...





Edited by CptCurl (27/06/12 09:09 PM)

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MikeRowe
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211146 - 19/06/12 11:53 AM

That is indeed a wonderful rifle, Bill. And such a shootable and useful caliber.

I'll bet she'll be a shooter.

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vagrouser
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211147 - 19/06/12 12:09 PM

A few more...








Edited by CptCurl (27/06/12 09:10 PM)

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4seventy
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211151 - 19/06/12 01:19 PM

Oh yeah, that is a beautiful rifle!
You're a lucky man!
Thanks for showing, and please keep us informed on how she shoots.

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kamilaroi
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: 4seventy]
      #211161 - 19/06/12 08:46 PM

Nice island locks c/w stalking safeties plus an exceptional piece of timber. Overall a very pleasant piece of work with the sideclips!

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vagrouser
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: kamilaroi]
      #211186 - 20/06/12 06:56 AM














Edited by CptCurl (27/06/12 09:11 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211189 - 20/06/12 08:23 AM

That's something I haven't seen before - bottom of the notch for 50 zero, level with the wings for 150, then 200 and 250 leaves.

I found with my .69 and round balls, that bottom of the notch gave 100 and top of wings gave 200, so 1/2 way is roughly 1/2 way. Handy to know for hunting.

The 200yard leaf appears it would work the same way, top of wings would give 250yards zero, and I'd lay odds the top of the 250 yard leaf's wings should be very close to 300 with the bullets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: DarylS]
      #211194 - 20/06/12 10:32 AM

Vagrouser - on further reflection that has got to be almost?? as good as it gets - a very best rifle from one of the three best British makers in the history of gunmaking

For your own benefit the addition of the extra accoutrements would be worthwhile to complete the whole "set"

Re: H&H service, I telephoned Pat Murphy about my 8 bore ballgun (posted here) and got a copy of the sales ledger like yours by email 30 mins later!!

I hope you will enjoy the rifle until it passes to another enthusiast (a long time forward!)

TH44

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vagrouser
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: TH44]
      #211198 - 20/06/12 01:13 PM

If I can't take quality pics, at least I can take a lot of them right? At some point I'll get it sorted.

Daryl, it is plain as day to me now that you've explained how those sights work. I hadn't consciously noted the two yardages on the standing blade-had I been asked to explain it, I would have wrongly assumed maximum point blank range to 150 yds although that clearly makes no sense looking at the ballistics. Thank you for clarifying what I hadn't even thought to ask about. I'll remember to test your theory for 300 too. Btw, the jaundiced orb at the end of the barrel is an old ivory night sight that slides into a longitudinal dovetail, and has yellowed with age. The original steel sight is long gone, but I imagine POI will be identical.

I just today got a set of sling swivels from Mike Rowe. They are impeccable and for sure he is the man I'll go to for a mould, etc..

I'm really lucky to get to 'have' this for now and do appreciate your shared enthusiasm. Like the PGA tour slogan says, "These guys are good." Those Victorian Brits (and Scots) made some really sublime arms.

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texan72
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211199 - 20/06/12 01:22 PM

very nice rifle

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DarylS
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: texan72]
      #211233 - 21/06/12 12:47 AM

With the original smaller diameter bead, the impacts should be centre of the bead. Since the night sight is larger in diameter, the centre of it, where the bullet is supposed to strike is actually higher than with a smaller diameter bead's centre, thus making this sight actually shoot a bit lower than the normal front sight. As you will automatically drop the muzzles to put the centre of the larger sight on the 'spot' to be hit, a lower bullet strike is quite likely.

Due to using the normal use of a night sight at close range, this elevation difference would not be noticable. I believe it would indeed be a good idea to attempt to repair or have someone repair the front sight. Trying to shoot any range at all past close range with the night sight might be difficult and perhaps frustrating due to low impacts. Much of course, depends on the loads, bullet weights, regulation, etc.

Good luck.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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vagrouser
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: DarylS]
      #211238 - 21/06/12 01:34 AM

Thanks Daryl, points well taken. Actually, this night sight isn't the typical 3/32", or larger diameter bead-it is quite fine and I'm guessing a near exact facsimile of the steel bead. It appears large in the blurry photo due to artifact.
I'll mic it and photograph it at some point. I agree that it shouldn't be too tough for a good gunsmith to duplicate it in steel. The ivory sight would appear fragile, but then again it has withstood the test of time.

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lancaster
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211243 - 21/06/12 03:43 AM

is this the original round now called 10,3x60R Swiss?

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vagrouser
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: lancaster]
      #211244 - 21/06/12 04:15 AM

Yes, for all intents and purposes it is the same round from what I've read.

I am planning to use RWS 10.3x60R brass as that seems to be preferred to Bertram (and is quite a bit cheaper). I expect it will be a good load for deer and hogs at modest range.

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Huvius
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: vagrouser]
      #211246 - 21/06/12 04:36 AM

Any thoughts on the hammerless H&H at doublegunhq?
http://www.doublegunhq.com/itemDetails.aspx?id=4281
Looks to be a pretty nice rifle.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (21/06/12 04:38 AM)

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vagrouser
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Re: H&H 450/400 2 3/8" [Re: Huvius]
      #211252 - 21/06/12 05:27 AM

It does. Interesting front trigger-looks to be articulated, but I haven't seen one like that before. To my eye, the H&H front triggers from this period are rather corpulent (mine included) already. Iwould want to handle it with that tang aperture sight. I had a Jeffrey Farquharson set up with a Lyman sight in the same fashion and couldn't get a comfortable grip.

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