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DarylS
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Maximus]
      #209929 - 03/06/12 09:10 AM

I hunted for years and years with a straight 4X on my big game rifles. I even taped my Daughter's 2 1/2 to 10X scope at it' 4X setting, but then, she shoots better than any client I ever witnessed tested on paper.

Elbow rested, 1 1/2" for 10 shots @ 100meters using a solid black (no aiming point) deer silhouette for a target. 8 shots inside 1 1/8". I merely said, kill that deer. Is more power needed?

I see too many people every year, due to having high power variable scopes, using them for glassing, instead of binoculars. Around here, whe you see movement, it might be a hunter walking down a logging road or on a trail you didn't even know was there.

I've personally see a glint, looked at it through my binocs to see someone looking at me through his damn 3-9X variable scope That will make your neck hair stand up! How many times are neophites like this curling a finger on the trigger? He actually thought you were a moose, deer or bear. I am convinced high powered variables promote this 'glassing for game' using the rifle's scope.

If I had my way, scopes during big game season would be limited to 4X or less - 2X would be even better. That at least would limit or eliminate the 'glassing' with their rifle scopes.

That's my opinion of variables. Yes, I have a number of them and use high powers only when load testing. During the hunting season, they are taped off at 3X or 4X.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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paradox_
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #209939 - 03/06/12 10:59 AM

Daryl
I could not agree more!!!! bloody variable this, illuminated that, range finders, 30mm tubes...never ever on serious rifles.

Best
Eric

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #209954 - 03/06/12 04:53 PM

Quote:

variable scopes are simply not needed; are only a feature to increase sales to non hunters or hunters with little experience.


That's a massive generalisation, and I assure you there are plenty of hunters using variable scopes with lots of experience.

I certainly know that there are plenty of hunters using variable scopes with lots of experience, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE RIGHT. The scope sales people must really love them. However, I am not one to try to tell them to not use them. On the other hand, I know that I have no use for them. My "massive generalization" was learned through massive experience, my friend!




Still waiting for a response on who actually makes these 2 1/2x and 3x fixed scopes.

Other than the Leupold 2 1/2x. The only one to my knowledge.

Instead of the "massive" hyperbole.

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Maximus
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #209955 - 03/06/12 05:37 PM

John, certainly the 2.5x Leupold is still made - http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shoot...0mm-ultralight/

The problem is it's a 2.5x with long eye relief so the field of view isn't great - 13.2m @ 100m.

The Zeiss 1.1-4x24 at 1.1 gives you 38m @ 100m and can be cranked up to 4x for long shots where it still has 10.5m @ 100m. I think those two facts alone make it, or others with a similar specification, an ideal choice for those who want to put a scope on a double.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Maximus]
      #209956 - 03/06/12 05:50 PM

I have a Schmidt and Bender 1.5-4 on the .375, it is nearly always on 2x. Daryl, I can´t believe people would "glass" you with a scope on a rifle!!!!!!!!!?? Is that true ? best



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Maximus
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #209957 - 03/06/12 05:59 PM

Great picture Mike

Did you have the option of mounting the scope lower?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #209964 - 03/06/12 07:58 PM

Quote:

I have a Schmidt and Bender 1.5-4 on the .375, it is nearly always on 2x. Daryl, I can´t believe people would "glass" you with a scope on a rifle!!!!!!!!!?? Is that true ? best






Great outfit you there Mike.

I've got a number of low powered variables.

A Zeiss 1.1-4x, Zeiss 1.5-6x, Leupold 1-4x, Nightforce 1-4.5x.

Buying a Leupold 2 1/2x currently.


Just interested how all the "experienced" guys are getting all these 2 1/2x and 3x fixed scopes?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Edited by NitroX (04/06/12 01:16 AM)


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #209967 - 03/06/12 08:26 PM

Maximus, it is the standard H&H QD mount, I don´t know if they can lower it, maybe ? seems fine as it is though, best

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #209972 - 03/06/12 09:35 PM

I have a couple of Leupold 1,1-4 VXII ´s , one on a rimfire, the other on a Marlin .44, for the money nothing is close and if I am honest these older eyes can´t tell the optical clarity from higher end gear. The only thing I would say if you are shooting a .375 then you need to KNOW it will retain zero. The Zeiss on that Hartman we bought a couple of months ago has proven to be superb, I don´t like the front bell ring but it arrived at my mates two weeks ago so I can get a case made for it, he took it out last week, from off the hood of his pick up it shot a 5 shot group at 110 yds into 3/4", he took off the scope, remounted it and got 3 rounds touching ! Those germans can certainly make claw mounts ! best

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Sville
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #209974 - 03/06/12 10:25 PM

Quote:

I have a Schmidt and Bender 1.5-4 on the .375, it is nearly always on 2x. Daryl, I can´t believe people would "glass" you with a scope on a rifle!!!!!!!!!?? Is that true ? best





Great pic, you look rather satisfied.... I like both my Zeiss in 1,1-4x24 on my DR and 1,5-6x42 on the Blaser, they are perfect and enough for driven hunts. I also have a 2,5-12x50 Swarowski for shooting at long distance, but I never use it as binoculars. For that I have a Zeiss 10x40.


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mickey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #209986 - 04/06/12 01:19 AM

Mike

I have that exact scope on a .375. I love the scope and the clarity is superb. I would guess that at any power is is brighter than any Leopold ever made.

There is a drawback though. The power adjustment ring is extremely hard to rotate. (making it a fixed power for DRJ) I sent it off to S&B and they wanted US$750 to fix it. Seems like a lot for an expensive scope. Will stick to low power Zeiss instead of buying anymore S&Bs as even my 20 year old Diavaris get fixed for the shipping cost.

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DarylS
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: mickey]
      #209989 - 04/06/12 01:28 AM

Yes - it's true, Mike & has happened more than once.

Usually the deadbeat/miscreants who do this, are the fools/inbred/semi-literates who cannot put a rifle to their shoulder without their finger being curled around the trigger.

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Daryl


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #210003 - 04/06/12 03:42 AM

Sville, "I look rather satisfied" !! relieved more like, 10th day of a 10 day hunt, I thought we had lost our chance and if you ask why I have as much dirt on me as the buff thats because after an approx 10km stalk the last 500 metres was on my back, as my friend said when I sent him a photo in England "Well the animal is certainly better looking and appears cleaner than you " best

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ruffcountry
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #210054 - 04/06/12 02:26 PM

Well I cant top Mike's great picture but here is picture of my 9.3 with a new 2-7x32 vortex viper scope . It is very clear and has hold over and windage dots but I dont really like the way the power ring is set up ( although it is easy to change power ) and I think the reticle could be thicker at the edges .



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doubleriflejack
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Maximus]
      #210109 - 05/06/12 03:43 AM

Maximus---Like I said before, show me a European manufacturer who makes a low power fixed scope. There isn't any choice. It's variable or nothing. Just because you have "massive experience" it doesn't mean you are right either, my friend.
____________________
You are quite correct, in that European manufacturer's don't make a low power fixed scope, leaving no choice for most European's dependent upon those manufacturers. This only proves my point, that most modern manufacturers make and sell only what gives them most profit; that they have worked hard to brainwash the public into the idea that the need is for a variable scope on every rifle, and that the public needs to overlook the truth, the fact that, in most hunting situations, a variable scope is simply not needed, but is mostly for impressing those who don't know better, being massively brainwashed. What I have expressed here, are my OPINIONS about scopes on rifles, that is what was asked; I wouldn't want or expect all others to accept any or all of my opinion. What I have expressed is that my opinion on this matter is RIGHT FOR ME, based on some 40 years of extensive hunting experience with double rifles, my friend. If you prefer variable scopes, happy trails to you, but don't try to tell me that I AM WRONG on my own personal preferences, my friend.


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doubleriflejack
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #210111 - 05/06/12 04:21 AM


DaryI S---hunted for years and years with a straight 4X on my big game rifles. I even taped my Daughter's 2 1/2 to 10X scope at it' 4X setting, but then, she shoots better than any client I ever witnessed tested on paper.

Elbow rested, 1 1/2" for 10 shots @ 100meters using a solid black (no aiming point) deer silhouette for a target. 8 shots inside 1 1/8". I merely said, kill that deer. Is more power needed?

I see too many people every year, due to having high power variable scopes, using them for glassing, instead of binoculars. Around here, whe you see movement, it might be a hunter walking down a logging road or on a trail you didn't even know was there.

I've personally see a glint, looked at it through my binocs to see someone looking at me through his damn 3-9X variable scope That will make your neck hair stand up! How many times are neophites like this curling a finger on the trigger? He actually thought you were a moose, deer or bear. I am convinced high powered variables promote this 'glassing for game' using the rifle's scope.

If I had my way, scopes during big game season would be limited to 4X or less - 2X would be even better. That at least would limit or eliminate the 'glassing' with their rifle scopes.

That's my opinion of variables. Yes, I have a number of them and use high powers only when load testing. During the hunting season, they are taped off at 3X or 4X.
Daryl S & Paradox,
I agree 100% with you, elaboration on my view that variable scopes are not needed; are mostly “glitz” and a selling feature, for maximum profit from manufacturers and retailers.

Mike Bailey--I can´t believe people would "glass" you with a scope on a rifle!!!!!!!!!?? Is that true ? best
Yes, Mike, I can assure you that it is true, for I have seen it done numerous times, and when done to me, it gets me rather upset and uncomfortable, though obviously not as upset and uncomfortable as being actually shot at, which has happened to me twice by damn fools who should never be hunting anything.

Two other fringe opinions: 1. By far, I prefer the great old German Claw mounts, probably best mount design ever—the Germans had it right from day one. I have used my milling machine to make rings for the many German claw mounts on double rifles in my collection. German claw mounts allow quick on/off, with never a problem. 2. Most, in not all, original scopes on classic old double rifles, tended to be mounted way too high—that was the common popular style in those days. The more modern trend is to have them mounted lower, a marked improvement, in my opinion. My preference is to mount my double rifle scopes as low as practical, and that is precisely what I have done over the past 30 or 40 years.


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mickey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #210113 - 05/06/12 04:47 AM

I would assume that anyone who would look through a 3x9 at you would also look through a 2x at you. Idiots are idiots no matter what scope they have.

I understand taping a scope to a fixed power for a child. Children, and some adults, are always fiddling with stuff. Fiddlers with scopes are the ones who are held up as an example because they are the ones with the scope on 9x when the animal is 25 feet away. They are not the rule though, rather the exception.

The correlation to this is the fellow who has a fixed 2.5 and has an animal in some bush 250 yards away. Still cannot find a shot. I once shot a wounded Grizzly at close to 300 yards in the brush. If I had not had a scope that would go to 7x I would never have been able to pick out a kill shot. Yes it is, IMO, better to take a shot like that than try a sneak through the willows and tag alders on a wounded bear.

Options, that is what a variable will give you. Just because it says it has 9x does not mean you have to use it. On a Double a lower combo is fine as the rifle is limited in range anyway. Also lighter and less likely to change the poi.

Agree on claw mounts 100%. I also like some of the Euro pivot mounts for retainability.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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MikeRowe
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: mickey]
      #210128 - 05/06/12 12:35 PM

Last year I mounted a steel tube Leupold Alaskan 2.5X scope on a double .303. The client has trouble seeing open sights any more so needed the scope option. I made a set of Davidson detachable rings and bases to keep everything as unobstrusive as possible when the scope is not mounted.

The 7/8" tube of the Alaskan makes a very trim setup. Unfortunately Leupold only made these for a short time, but they can be found.

On the scope power deal, I was always a fan of a fixed 2.5 or 3, but now use a 2-7 Leupold on my do everything go to rifle. It's always set on 2X, but I've had situations as mentioned when I needed to do a precise shot in heavy cover and the extra power is very useful.

I always carry binoculars to spot with, as I find the field of view much more useful. And I don't want to be looking through a scope at other hunters.

I'll have to see if I have a picture of the .303 setup somewhere.

Edited by MikeRowe (05/06/12 01:20 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: MikeRowe]
      #210155 - 05/06/12 05:40 PM

These comments aren't confined to doubles.

Years ago you would see a .375 scoped with a 2 1/2x scope. After all that is 99% all that is needed.

Nowadays we make "do" with a 1-5x range variable. A good scope to have on a big bore especially if in QD mounts. The 1x / 1.5x bottom end is good for close range and most of the hunting, with the 4x or 5x top end, good for any long range shot.

BUT it is amazing is a lot of the new chums who put stupid 4-18x or similar scopes on their big bore rifle. On some of the idiot forums on net this is actually quite common. (some guys know where I am referring to. )

How to look instantly like someone with no ffffing idea - put a 4-18x on a big bore rifle (and I don't mean one like a .338 Lapua where it is appropriate).

My .375 bolt action has had a straight 4x on it for an African hunt - because the Leupold 1 1/2-6x failed (ie the reticle was moving under recoil). And I had a different 1 1/2-6x on my 9.3mm double for another hunt.

V express sights on the .450 of course.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #210157 - 05/06/12 05:41 PM

I wonder if we could get one of the German/Austrian scope makers interested in making a 2 1/2x scope model again?

Zeiss
S & B
Swarovski

?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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Yochanan
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #210180 - 05/06/12 11:00 PM

Quote:

I wonder if we could get one of the German/Austrian scope makers interested in making a 2 1/2x scope model again?

Zeiss
S & B
Swarovski

?




I would love to see more scopes of lower magnification with steel tubes suitable for drillings, doubles and boltaction rifles in larger calibre.

Swarovski Nova were made with steel tube and can often found for a very good price used, unfortunately 4x is the smallest magnification.

Cheers

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.


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DarylS
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: Yochanan]
      #210184 - 05/06/12 11:59 PM

If running a 1-4X or 1.5 to 5X or any variable for that matter, make sure you the check point of impact at different power settings. I've seen problems with both Leupold and Redfield in the low powered variables.
The Leupold 2X was a favourite of mine of the .458.

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Daryl


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mickey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #210200 - 06/06/12 02:31 AM


I am not a fan of Leopold scopes and the reason you stated is only one reason. I find them not to be very sharp at distance and also hard to focus both the cross hairs and the image simultaneously. They also have a wonderful warranty program. It seems everyone I know has availed themselves of it. I prefer scopes with a good warranty that no one has ever needed to use.

A 300 yard shot at a Caribou, in a herd, requires more than 2x magnification. The same rifle would also be used for a Brown Bear at 25 yards and fixed 4 or 6 would be a way more than imprudent.

Options

--------------------
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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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DarylS
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: mickey]
      #210219 - 06/06/12 08:57 AM

Since I find Caribou to be very nearly inedible, just like the lichen they eat, I don't hunt them. For the elk, moose, and deer I do hunt, a 2X has worked very well indeed for me, for 38 years now - without ever a failure of any sort.

As to Leupold, only one had a problem with poi changes, along with one Redfield.

To Leupold's defence, it is the only scope that will take coming in out of a sub freezing weather and get dunked into a bucket of hot water wihtout fogging - saw that with 3 of them- to my utter amazement.

I another camp, just a few years ago, I saw 2 Zeiss scopes on the client's rifles fog in very wet weather that was well above freezing, while my friend's Leupold and both my 3-9 M3200 & my brother's old 2-1/2X Bushnel custom, didn't fog in the slightest - same hunt, same weather.

There are good and bad in all scopes, it seems.

--------------------
Daryl


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mickey
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Re: More heresy - scopes on doubles [Re: DarylS]
      #210226 - 06/06/12 10:15 AM

It has only been in the last 20 years or so that Zeiss has used Nitrogen in their scopes. They used to claim that their scopes were sealed so well that they would not leak or fog. Obviously an optimistic statement.

The glass is second to none though

--------------------
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Mick

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