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MarkPoley
.224 member


Reged: 22/05/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Yellville, Arkansas
German pre 1913 Proof Marks
      #209144 - 27/05/12 11:47 AM

I was looking at the M88 sporting rifles that Lancaster has posted on the Mannlicher page of the forum. Very nice rifles by the way. I noticed that several of the rifles have a proof on the left side of the receiver as 2.75g GBP/StmG. My Collath M98 sporter, originally, and several others I've seen are marked 2.67g GBP/StmG. Is that not a lighter proof load or am I missing something? Everything that I have read claims that the M88 is a much weaker action than a M98. Maybe the Germans didn't think so. Thanks

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Acts 4: 12-13 ; Rom. 8:29

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Igorrock
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Posts: 1650
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Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: MarkPoley]
      #209166 - 27/05/12 02:05 PM

Is the proof house and point of time same with both rifles ?

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lancaster
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Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: Igorrock]
      #209173 - 27/05/12 06:01 PM

the difference seems not to be so much that it realy makes the difference. I can only assume that something was changed sometimes.
we will wait for kudue as being the man for such questions. its the long pentecost weekend so he is maybe busy and dont see it before tuesday.

I wonder myself about the stamp on your collath mauser
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=208805&an=0&page=0#Post208805

"I have a question about the proof on the side of the receiver.
You can see in the photo that the rifle was originally proofed
at 2.67 gG.B.P. but later reproofed at 2.45 gG.B.P."

can only imagine that the 2,67 was an error when made and they stamp the 2,45 over this.

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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: lancaster]
      #209207 - 27/05/12 10:28 PM

This Collath bolt action rifle was built on an early, pre-1901, military rifle action made by Spandau arsenal. Collath had very good relations to the nearby Spandau arsenal. Perhaps he obtained a surplused early test action.
The varying standard powder charges reflect the advancements in powder and case technology from 1888 to 1910. Both the "Gewehrblättchenpulver" = (military-) rifle flake powder as well as the inside design of the brass case underwent some changes. Though all the military as well as most civilian loads of the cartridge M88 aka 8x57I were loaded with the same .318", 14.7g = 227gr round nose bullets, the other components changed slightly. Take, for example, the military loads: Originally the case was made of very thin brass and contained 2.75g = 42.4gr powder. When Maxim machineguns were tested in 1892, the thin cases were insufficient for mg use. A new case with heavier walls and so reduced powder space was developed for MG use in 1893, this contained 2.45g = 38gr powder. In 1901 a new case and load, the "Einheitshülse" = universal case for use in both rifles and machineguns was settled on, containing 2.67gr = 41gr and was introduced as the regulation charge. Judging from contemporary catalogs, by 1910 the standard commercial 8x57I load featured the same 14.7g bullet weight and was loaded with 2.45g T1910 powder for 650 m/s = 2133 fps. Apparently the Collath rifle was at first stamped for the 1901 military load. This was then corrected to the standard sporting load, as no "2.67g" load was available to civilians. This doesn't matter anyhow: As the CROWN-crown/N proofmarks show, it was proofed using the "4000 at Beschusspatrone" = proof cartridge.
BTW, the M88 action is neither weaker nor stronger than the Mannlicher-Schoenauer one, as it shares the same dimensions of receiver and bolt. The weak part of the military rifles and carbines was the thin barrel, covered by a sheet metal sleeve and prone to rust pitting at the already weak chamber area.

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MarkPoley
.224 member


Reged: 22/05/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Yellville, Arkansas
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: kuduae]
      #209377 - 29/05/12 12:46 PM

Igorrock, If I understand correctly according to the article on German proof laws in the 1975 Gun Digest the rifles I referred to in my first post would have all been proofed under the same regulations that were in affect from 1893-1913. Thanks

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Acts 4: 12-13 ; Rom. 8:29

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MarkPoley
.224 member


Reged: 22/05/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Yellville, Arkansas
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: MarkPoley]
      #209378 - 29/05/12 12:49 PM

Lancaster, Thank you for the reply and the link to my Collath Mauser post.

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Acts 4: 12-13 ; Rom. 8:29

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MarkPoley
.224 member


Reged: 22/05/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Yellville, Arkansas
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: MarkPoley]
      #209388 - 29/05/12 01:17 PM

Kuduae,Thank You for the reply, I had always wondered why the proof was changed. I have a couple more questions for you. First let me say, I'm not in any way disagreeing with anything you posted. You mentioned the action on my rifle was a pre 1901 action made by Spandau Arsenal. What did you see to determine the date as pre 1901 and the maker as Spandau? Is the bolt handle original to the bolt or did Collath change it? It has the same Crown-Crown/N proof on the top and bottom of the bolt shank that is on the bottom of the receiver ring and barrel. The bolt handle looks simular to those on the early Mauser military carbines, but I've not compared them up close. Also do you know what the markings on the bottom of the barrel mean? Thank You very much for your help.


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Acts 4: 12-13 ; Rom. 8:29

Edited by CptCurl (01/12/12 11:53 PM)

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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: MarkPoley]
      #209436 - 29/05/12 10:51 PM

From the marks it appears it(maybe just the action) was proofed in Suhl prior to the change in the proof rules in 1912 and then again about that time or a little later before the September 1923 dating scheme, but I don't see a Crown over R so there may have been some rebarrel effort post 1912. I see the pre-rifled diameter in mm so that couples well with the Nitro proof post 1912. Not sure on the script E 3 B, maybe a EB the 3rd from a 3rd generation of mechanics. But from the effort on the tube, I'd say Robert Schlegelmilch is the holder of the encirced RS. Are there any pre-1910 plug gauge diameter type stamps?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: ellenbr]
      #209482 - 30/05/12 08:20 AM

Raimey, I don't think this rifle was rebarreled, not even the receiver. Only the standard service charge marking was changed, reflecting the 1910 change of powder and load, with proof pressures and ballistics unchanged. Remember, Frankfurt on Oder had it's own proofhouse initially, because of the Collath factory there, but I lack knowledge about it, except it was moved to Spandau sometime before WW1, when?, and closed down following the Versailles treaty. I don't know either when Frankfurt-Spandau changed from gauge to mm.
Mark, your action is a large ring one. It lacks the usual Mauser commercial markings, serial number and others , behind the recoil lug. Here it shows the typical factory internal markings of the government arsenals Spandau, Danzig and Erfurt. As you noted, the firing pin is of the pre-1901 type. The Mauser transitional actions are all small ring ones. Pre-WW1 "surplus" M98 actions were usually not available, everyone wanting to build a 98-action rifle had to buy a commercial action from Mauser first. But I have seen two Suhl-made rifles on cock-on-closing small ring 1896 military test actions, apparently sold as surplus after the end of tests, so IMHO your action had a similar fate. Your bolthandle was certainly altered from the original shape, more likely reforged than replaced.

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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: kuduae]
      #209727 - 01/06/12 09:06 AM

Axel I have serious reservations that Collath put much effort into the bolt gun of question and the marks on the M88 that arrived at my computer have similar stamps, like the script W & others, so the bulk of the effort on the M98 had to be in Suhl.








Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (01/12/12 11:54 PM)

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MarkPoley
.224 member


Reged: 22/05/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Yellville, Arkansas
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: ellenbr]
      #209739 - 01/06/12 01:24 PM

Raimey, Thank you for your replies. To answer your question in your first post, All of the markings that are on the bottom of the barrel are visible on the two flats in that picture. Other than Collaths name and town on the top two flats either side of the rib there are no other marking on the barrel. I do have a better picture of the bottom oblique flat with the proof marks on it.

The Crown-crown/N proof that you see on the barrel and receiver ring are also on the top and bottom of the root of the bolt handle. Thank you for the info on the RS in the oval, it would be interesting to know what the E3B in script means. On your second post, other than the Crown-crown/N in the same place on the bottom of the receiver ring and the load proof on the side of the receiver I didn't see any markings that were like those on mine. Would love to see the rest of the rifle, looks very interesting. I did notice though that the bolt handle shape and checkering looked the same as mine.

Thanks again so much for your replies.

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Acts 4: 12-13 ; Rom. 8:29

Edited by CptCurl (01/12/12 11:55 PM)

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MarkPoley
.224 member


Reged: 22/05/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Yellville, Arkansas
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: MarkPoley]
      #209743 - 01/06/12 01:59 PM

Kuduae, Thank you for answering my questions on the date and origins of this action. I am assuming that arsenal made test actions were probably not that plentiful so, rifles like this one would be less common than sporters made on Mauser commercial actions? You mentioned that the original marking 2.67g GBP was a load that was not avaliable commercially so the rifle was restamped 2.45g GBP. I've seen several Oberndorf Mauser sporters with the 2.67g GBP intact. Do you think they were sold before the 2.45g load was avaliable or were they not required to restamp them and just sold them as is?
I would love to find a scope for this rifle someday but I've never seen claw bases quite like these.

It is quite accurate with the sights. The front sight also has a large ivory flip up bead behind the standing front sight,I guess for low light.
Thanks again for your help, I do appreciate it very much.

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Acts 4: 12-13 ; Rom. 8:29

Edited by CptCurl (01/12/12 11:55 PM)

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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: MarkPoley]
      #209801 - 02/06/12 01:34 AM

There are several possibilities for the mechanic B in the trade as some point post 1900 there was an Emil Bader-Mehlis, Edmund Bader - Suhl, Engelhardt Barthelmes - Zella Sankt Blasii, Emil Barthelmes - Zella, Ernst Barthelmes - Zella, Edmund R. Bornmüller - Suhl, Ernst H. Bornmüller - Suhl, Ernst Büttner who may have gone by Ernst Wilhelm Büttner and I for one think the mechanics used the last to letters for initials. I'm sure there were others like Ernst Bauer who may have had a repair facilities or have been a stocker. At 1st one would think Suhl makers would have sourced Suhl makers but it is possible that effort was sourced from Mehlis & Zella Sankt Blasii. With that said a 1st guess would be Emil Barthelmes who hung out his gunmaking shingle in 1854 so there could have been a couple of generations by the time Max Metzner owned the firm post WWI.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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MarkPoley
.224 member


Reged: 22/05/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Yellville, Arkansas
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: ellenbr]
      #209818 - 02/06/12 03:08 AM

Raimey, Thanks for the reply. Your info makes this rifle all the more interesting. My Poley family came to Pennsylvania in 1754 from Zella Germany. Poley was anglicized from Bohlich. My 4th greatgrandfather Johann Valtin Bohlich born in Zella 1749. His sponser at baptisim was Johann Valtin Bader Master riflesmith. Emil and Edmund were possibly descendants. Thanks

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Acts 4: 12-13 ; Rom. 8:29

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: MarkPoley]
      #209833 - 02/06/12 04:46 AM

Mark, what a whale of a tale and connection if it was made by the Boys Bader. Also there was a Valtin firm active at this time. If a Zella-Mehlis firm was sourced, and Collath did heavily source them, then it is pretty much equal probability for Bader as for Barthelmes. But for the preponderance of evidence, I think the scales tilt toward the Boys Barthelmes

Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: ellenbr]
      #210110 - 05/06/12 04:20 AM

Mark, did not find a Bohlich in Zella, but there may have been just a change of spelling. In common German Bohlich and Bohlig are spoken just the same. There are 7 Bohlig gunmakers mentioned in Zella, Mehlis with one moved to Berlin. These may have been your relatives. Valentin Ernst Bohlig, mentione 1888. Friedrich Bohlig, Hammerroedchen 14, Mehlis, mentioned 1897-98. Albert Bohlig, Kuhstirn 20, m.1898. Theodor Bohlig, Meininger Str.320, Mehlis,1897. Bohlig & Esch, Malzhügel 1,Zella-Mehlis, 1899-post 1935. Adolf Bohlig, Zella-Mehlis, Kleintiegel 20, shop in Berlin, Stubenrauchstr.6, since 1900. succeeded by Fritz B. (son?), 1900-1942.
But your rifle was not proofed at the Mehlis proof house, as from 1911 on M. not only stamped the bore diameter in mm, but also always added the proof date, month/year, and a ledger number for that month. So it is unlikely that any part of your rifle ever saw Z-M.
IMHO now, the service powder charges for the 8x57I may be used for dating the rifles: 1888-1901 = 2.75g, 1901-1910 = 2.67g, 1910 on = 2.45g. Your rifle was probably inadvertedly with the "old" charge, then corrected to the "new" standard sevice charge. Powders and charges changed, but ballistics and proof load remained the same.
I too have not yet seen claw mounts like your's, but similar mounts with a wide spacing of the front claws and an offset rear base are sometimes seen on regulation Gew98 Scharfschützengewehre. Those were still the formative years of scope mounting. All mounts were hand made by many individual gunsmithes. As it is known that Collath mounted many scopes in WW1, it may be an early "Collath" mount. It is quite hopeless trying to find a scope with tops that fit your bases exactly, so I would fit some modern bases to your rifle, if possible, using the existing cuts and holes.

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MarkPoley
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Reged: 22/05/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Yellville, Arkansas
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: kuduae]
      #210126 - 05/06/12 11:23 AM

Kuduae, very interesting info on the Bolhig gunmakers, thanks. Bohlich is the spelling on the baptismal record in Zella but we have found Bohlig, Bolig, Pohligh and Polig as alternate spellings. Valtin also has alternate spellings, Valentin and Valentine. Those Bolhigs that you listed could very well be cousins.
Would Collath have had gunsmiths working in house for him at this time or did he do his own work? Or did he farm out the work to the guild workers? It is my understanding that Wilhelm Collath died about 1906-1907 and someone told me that the guns were marked differently after his death. If thats the case would the rifle have been restamped after 1910 when in for rework or repair? Or do you think it was finished sometime between 1910-1913 before law the proof changed?
The barrel measures .309 bore and .323 groove, would it have been recut for 8x57S?
I apologize for all the questions. I truly appreciate everyones imput on this thread. I'm finding the history of the rifle very fascinateing, two weeks ago I knew nothing about it.
Thank You again!

--------------------
Acts 4: 12-13 ; Rom. 8:29

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: MarkPoley]
      #210206 - 06/06/12 04:33 AM

Would Collath have had gunsmiths working in house for him at this time? You bet!
The company was founded by Wilhelm Collath's father in law Gustav Teschner in 1838, taken over by W. Collath about 1870. When Wilhelm died in 1906, his sons Franz and Paul Collath continued. The company existed until 1945. Various names were used over the time: Teschner & Co., W.Collath & Söhne, Teschner & Collath, trademark TESCO. Pre-WW1 the Collath factory was one of the largest sporting gun and ammo maker in Germany with more than 100 employees. Granted, most of them may have been occupied in cartridge and bullet making, but Collath certainly had full gunmaking capacities. They even supplied many country gunmakers with parts and complete guns in the white. Remember, government proofhouses were few: Two at the competing neighboring Gunmaking centers Suhl and Mehlis, one in Oberndorf, site of the Mauser factory, and one in Frankfurt(Oder) at the Collath factory. The former Collath factory was located at Krossener Str.18 in Frankfurt's suburb Dammvorstadt on the east bank of the Oder river. As the Oder since 1945 is the border between Germany and Poland, so it is now in Polish Slubice.
As to your question about the barrel diameters, please have a look at this discussion (i hate to repeat myself):

http://www.germanguns.com/upload/showthread.php?584-8x57R-and-8x57JRS-question

The barrel dimensions you give,.309-.323, are the ones of the post-1891 military barrels. But the real critical dimensions here are those of the chamber's case-neck and throat area. At least, your rifle was not deemed fit to use the WW1 S load by the authorities then, evidenced by the holes for fastening the warning plate on the stock. This is what I would do: I would take one of the downloaded American 8mm Mauser loads. If it chambers without the slightest resistance, shoot it. Then take the fired case. If a 8mmS = .323" bullet slips freely into the unsized neck, you may use the rifle with all modern 8x57IS factory loads.

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MarkPoley
.224 member


Reged: 22/05/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Yellville, Arkansas
Re: German pre 1913 Proof Marks [Re: kuduae]
      #210229 - 06/06/12 10:33 AM

Kuduae, I was not aware that the Collath factory was that large. The markings on this rifle are W. Collath & Sohne. Actually I hate to admit it but I was looking at the wrong Frankfurt:). Getting the right one makes this alot clearer.
I should have mentioned that the chamber is for the 8x57S cartridge also. Actually the neck measures the same as my J.P. Sauer 1943 K98. The rifle actually shoots a fairly hot load with a 220gr Sierra bullet to the sights at 100yds.
There are no holes in the stock for a warning plate, I think that may have been the sporter that John303 has posted here that you responded to. Thanks for the link to your post on the German gun board, I will go back and reread that again. Thanks Again for your reply.

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Acts 4: 12-13 ; Rom. 8:29

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