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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
10 bore to 12 bore
      #209001 - 26/05/12 01:23 AM

I have a new question that may sound dumb but here go's I would like to have a 12 bore rifle and I would like it to use round balls Hears the question I would like it to be able to use the heavy lode for 12 bore so would you really need the 10 bore I was thinking of getting one of the spainish guns would this be good for what I want?

Tom N

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DarylS
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Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #209004 - 26/05/12 01:40 AM

If the 12 is heavily built - it will work just fine, especially with smokeless loads.

The heavy 2 3/4" load IIRC, was 7 drams - 191gr. of black powder. This produced some 1,500fps to 1,550fps with a 12 bore ball of some 583gr. weight (1.33ounce) in pure lead or hardened at about 554gr. weight - 1.25ounce approx.

You can do this with smokeless powder with about 50% the recoil - the BP load is not fun to shoot, for me at least. You might like it, but it was hard on my stock - split down the wrist and needed repair. After that, I used only smokeless.

The 10 bore AYA I used lead in for geese - many years ago, was built much more strongly than any 12 bore double I've had. Shortened, it would weigh about 9 pounds and would also shoot a heavier ball, but with gas check cups to hold the ball centered, it could shoot a 600gr. .735" ball easily in it's .774" bore at much higher speeds & more easily than a 12 bore would do with a 12 or 13 bore ball.
With the undersized and smaller ball you should be able to achieve 2,000fps or close to that with that 600gr. ball - that's bear smackin' power!

Ed Huble might be able to suggest where to start with loads. They might already be in his thread - for suggested places to start, that is.

The gun's extra weight would also help, but know that 3 1/2" cases would probably be used and they would take a lot of wads to fill, which increases the ejecta and therefore recoil for any load. 2 7/8" might be better, however are they available new in plastic or perhaps paper?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
.300 member


Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #209008 - 26/05/12 02:32 AM

Daryl Thanks I was hoping to be able to use rifled barrels in the 12 by putting it up in the 10 bore action I was hoping to get the whight up to a point that one could shoot it without being betten to badly with recoil and rifleing at about 1/85 or 86". I also want to use plastic 12's in 23/4 or 3" whitch ever would get what I want in speed. I doin't really want to use black powder as I have a .72 muzzle loader for that. This is just something that I would like to do after I retire one needs something to keep you young.
Tom N

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DarylS
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Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #209037 - 26/05/12 08:02 AM

Good idea, and should work.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
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Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #209045 - 26/05/12 09:49 AM

Tom I own one of the Spanish 10s now and have owned one in the past. The one that I used to own was rechambered for 8bore 3 1/2". That should tell you how stout they are, they are an artillery piece with a stock. I would look for another 10 bore if thats what you want to do.

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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: casper50]
      #209049 - 26/05/12 10:41 AM

Casper50 thanks I think that it would be a fun gun to shoot and with whight it wouldn't kill at both ends.

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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
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Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #209466 - 30/05/12 04:38 AM

Several years ago, I had opportunity to closely examine, AND MEASURE WITH PRECISION CALIPERS, the action of a full nitro .577 British boxlock rifle, 750 grain bullet version. At that time, I was working on several double shotgun to double rifle conversions I was making. One such conversion was a Spanish boxlock 10 ga. 3.5" mag., with Greener crossbolt---(these same type boxlock 10 ga. shotguns, actions, came from several different Spanish makers in the 1970s, and perhaps in the 1960s as well, some with and some without the crossbolts, though all, I think, from the same foundry). Comparing the British .577 nitro action dimensions with the Spanish 10 ga. action dimensions, I was delighted to see them very close to the same, with only the depth of the British action, below the watertable, slightly more. These big Spanish actions have proven, now with at least four or more makers, including myself, to hold up quite well to proof for full nitro .577, and, in at least one or two cases, to hold up well to proof for full nitro .600.

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
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Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #209467 - 30/05/12 04:56 AM

Tom the gun is so heavy there's very little felt recoil.

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TomN
.300 member


Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: casper50]
      #215638 - 27/08/12 08:48 AM

I am thinking of making a bid on a Tradewinds modal 1032 10 gage made in spain. I have no idea how much to bid I would like to know if it worth in the 450 to 500 hundred doller area or more and would it work for what I think that I would like to do which is to put up a 12 bore rifle or a 577 23/4" light ? I would also like to know if a Husquarna modal 51 16 gage would be a good one to use if I change my mind on going so big. I have a 45 70 so would like to know what other rounds that the modal 51 would work with? by the way the model 51 is a hammer gun so would like something that would go with that type of action thanks.
Tom

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casper50
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Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #215736 - 29/08/12 01:10 AM

Tom I tried to sell my 10 bore a few months ago for $500 and no takers.









Edited by CptCurl (06/10/12 09:54 PM)

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TomN
.300 member


Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: casper50]
      #215855 - 01/09/12 02:08 AM

Well won the bid on the 10 gage so looks like I will be off and running at some point. It looks like it has the grenner cross bolt so should be able to do what I want in the way of changes or just use it as a smooth rifle should be fun to play with.

Tom

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TomN
.300 member


Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #216558 - 11/09/12 02:08 PM

Picked up the 10 today the thing is very heavy and with 32 inch barrells its long. It has full and full chokes so I was woundering if the barrell is thicker at the muzzle end and if it is thick enough to rifle just the chokes seams that it would be better then having removable chokes installed or just a pipe dream. will just have to see what happens. I will have to go out and get sosme 10 gage 31/2" shot shells to see what its like to shoot. (also has the grenner cross bolt and double underlugs so should be plenty strong for what I want).
Tom N

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #216595 - 12/09/12 12:03 AM

Rifling the chokes would be an interesting venture, but - the 32" barrels are VERY long and probably cross too much for ball shooting. This is due to the wide receiver and touching barrels at the muzzle.

Only shooting will tell for sure.

The AYA 10 bore Matador I used on geese many years ago(before steel shot) was deadly, after I worked on the too-tight chokes. 96%X94% for left & right barrels, 2 oz. lead #2's, 3" hull. 80 yard goose gun smashed them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
.300 member


Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #216631 - 12/09/12 01:12 PM

I hadn't thouth about how wide the reciver is and you are rignt the barrells do seam to tuch at the muzzle. I could do it anyway and then put a wedge inbeween the barrels and see what happens a lot of money spent for mabe no gane though. how havey a ball will I be able to shoot in this thing if I just use Daryl's system for loading them? well just have to see. Thanks
TomN

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #216645 - 12/09/12 11:51 PM

I'd think a slighty lighter ball might shoot better than a full, bore sized ball due tothe convergence of the tubes. An undersized ball is what shot well in my own 12 bore double.

For that, I'd have Jeff Tanner make me a .750" ball mould and I'd use a system of wads, with the base off a plastic steel shot wad for the cup to center the ball in the bore. The wad will 'take' the spin and impart it to the ball, with marking the ball less than 1/2 rifling depth - good scenario with no or minimal leading. With 40 points of choke, a standard 10 bore should have a .734" bore. That's only .008" engraving each side for the ball, instead of 20 thousandths per side for a bore sized ball (.774") through a full choke.

Start with lighter, fast shot loads and go from there. I'd think Blue Dot or perhaps H4227 might be good powders. I'd go with the hottest shotshell primer you can to help with ignition, due to the lighter weight of the ball, over normal shot loads - I think it's called a #439 Federal. The Black Powder and Pyrodex shotshell primers are not hot, I've been told, but are actually weaker than standard 209's. I've no experience with them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #217913 - 13/10/12 09:55 AM

Went to the smith today and got a quote for cutting the barrells back on the 10 I was thinking 24" or 26" would one be better then the other? I will also be having sites installes he said that it would be easy as it has solid ribs so can drill and tap or dove tail them in. also should I get one or two leaf set up (50 and 100)? Thanks

Tom N

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DarylS
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Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #217932 - 14/10/12 05:18 AM

Tom - I'd get a 1 leaf sight - that is, the standing sight for 50 yards plus a folding leaf for 75 to 90. Since it's a smoothbore, I think longer range sighting is overbore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
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Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #217948 - 14/10/12 12:13 PM

Daryl that is what I was thinking just two one standing and one folding. Also can one have the barrells regulated as in a rifle to get better acurcey or is that asking to much from a smooth bore.

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DarylS
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Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #217965 - 15/10/12 03:01 AM

Loading changes, ie: lighter, heavier balls or slugs along with different powders and wad columns and/or crimps will all change the way the barrels shoot as in regulation.

There is much to work with prior to any thoughts of having the barrels split and regulated to a single load. If the barrels are Euro - they might be brazed and not soldered, making re-regulation immpossible. I know the Belgium barrels used to all be brazed in yer gone buy, I do not know about their firearms or Italian and etc guns today as to how they are joined.

The Italian barrels on my Kodiak rifle are brazed - pretty sure of that.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
.300 member


Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #218526 - 28/10/12 12:30 PM

Finily found a box of 10 gage 31/2" When I put a bid on this gun their were 10 gage in all the stores I have spent a week looking for a box to just shoot to get a feel for the gun and couldn't find a single one finily got one at Whole sale sports and that was the only one that they had. I also put a bid on a standare lee loader for the 10 gage 31/2 but have already been out bid. I doin't know if I want to go higher then 50 dollers though. will be retireing in about 6 more weeks and the fun should begean. Tom N

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DarylS
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Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #218558 - 29/10/12 03:31 AM

good luck Tom - sometimes you can find a small 12 gauge bench-style loader that can be modified, or even a set of Lee dies for 10 at gun shows.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #218582 - 29/10/12 01:28 PM

Let the wife talk me into going to 90 dollers and if that doint work I have a line on one other the is a little more and will try to get that one. I can get all the parts to load 10 31/2 on the net but I will need a loader to put them together but didn't really want a press and all that go's with it so am trying to get lee loaders (hand tools) for it to try to get balls to shoot where I want them to if I can find a very good load I would have the barrels regulated so as to shoot to 50 to 75 yards. Toom N

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DarylS
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Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #218756 - 01/11/12 02:35 AM

This, from another site I frequent, describing an 8 bore DR the fellow built. I'm posting it here so Nitro Express people can get an idea of what large diameter round balls can and will do.

"It is an 8 bore with Oregon Rifle Barrels"
"The barrels had rifling at 1@144, .006 deep. The breechplugs were machined and the hammers were extended to fit."
"The load was 300 grains of Fg, an 8 gauge Ox Yoke lubed cushion wad, a T/C Wonder Lube Cleaning Patch and an .820 cast ball. 1,425 fps. Loaned to to a customer for an African hunt, he shot a charging 525 pound male lion at 25 yards, flipped it up in the air and it did a one and a half summersault and landed on its back, facing away from them. The ball hit high chest, went the length of its body and exited through the hind quarters, shattering the pelvic girdle.
The power of these big bore guns is just totally amazing and until a person experiences it for themselves, they just do not understand."

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
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Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #219351 - 09/11/12 03:41 PM

Droped the 10 off at the smith today I hope it dosen't take too long to get the work done. I just went with reguler rifle sites as that was all he had and it will be a 50 yard gun so should be ok if it turns out to be better than narmol I can always change the sites later.
Tom N

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TomN
.300 member


Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: 10 bore to 12 bore [Re: TomN]
      #221205 - 09/12/12 06:18 AM

Picked up the 10 this morring it looks better then I though it would I had the barrells cut to 26" instade of 24". I think that it was a good choise the only thing that I wish that he had done was put a little sotder at the end of the barrels to fill the gap thata was left when it was shortend. I also picked up a pair of ywe wood billtes for a bow so now have the first two projects to work on when I retier on friday. I will have the wife put some picturs up when she has time as I have no idea and how to do it and she puts things on all the time. Have a great day.
Tom N

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