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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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casper50
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value on a .425 Westley needed
      #208822 - 23/05/12 09:05 PM

Let me start by saying that I know nothing about post WWII sporterized Mausers, hence the questions. I have found two .425 Westley's. Right now I can only get photos of this rifle, which I think is a good buy, and need opinions from those that know. Looking on the internet I see that in 2010 it failed to sale in 3 of Gavin's auctions. Is this a big clue? Is it worth $2000?


1. How much does the scope being drilled into the action hurt it?
2. Does being a sporterized service rifle make it that much less valuable than a commercial rifle?
3. Does the Nazi proofmark along with the Westley marks make a difference?
4. Are those the original service sights?

.425” Mauser action big game rifle by Westley Richards retailed by Newland Tarlton & Co Ltd of Nairobi. WW2 Nazi marked K98 action fitted with an early Leopold QD scope rail and struck with Birmingham proof marks. Sporting pattern safety for use with a scope. Walnut pistol grip stock with chequered fore end and grip fitted with a rubber recoil pad and detachable floor plate magazine. Barrel with Westley Richards triangle trade mark stamped to the top of the knox form is engraved to the left side NEWLAND TARLTON NAIROBI B.E. AFRICA, over .425” Birmingham proof marks. The barrel fitted with a standing express rear sight and blade front. The action fitted with a very good quality period Nickel Marburg 2 ˝ X 22 telescopic sight with a post and cross hair big game reticule.















Edited by NitroX (24/05/12 01:53 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: casper50]
      #208845 - 24/05/12 12:19 AM

2000 dollar is a good deal in my eye's
buy it

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casper50
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: lancaster]
      #208847 - 24/05/12 12:22 AM

Lancaster those are my thoughts also. I've always wanted one, but very few of the many firearms that I've owned over the years have stuck to me. Since there's a good chance that it will move on down the line I needed to know that I'd at least get most of my money back.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: lancaster]
      #208848 - 24/05/12 12:23 AM


Yep, agree.

As long as it doesn't have a burnt out barrel, I'd buy it.


1. How much does the scope being drilled into the action hurt it?

Maybe that's why it's priced at $2000. Yes, it hurts it from a collectors point of view but as an owner / shooter, no. Also means you can scope it with a scope you like without going through any pain of butchering an original rifle !!! LOL

2. Does being a sporterized service rifle make it that much less valuable than a commercial rifle?

Not sure.

3. Does the Nazi proofmark along with the Westley marks make a difference?

Not sure but sure makes the rifle interesting IMHO.

4. Are those the original service sights?

I don't think so BUT I can't see them that well and as with any rifle, they made what the customer asked for.

Would have to compare against other photos.

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pjaln
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: casper50]
      #208849 - 24/05/12 12:27 AM

interesting gun ,but not the typical westley 425 with drop box or loading clips which are more desirable ,,ive only seen this trigger guard treatment on some hollland rifles not on a westley it seems to be a lower end rifle made for the trades maybe in the lines of the westley game ranger i would contact westleys in england and run the numbers and see wwhat they say ,,there is,nt anything on the gun to really hurt its value outside of the scope base but it looks like its been there a long time so...paul

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: pjaln]
      #208851 - 24/05/12 12:33 AM

pjaln I also thought it was a lower end rifle hence my questions about value. I'll have to say it's way lower than all but one .425 Westley that I've seen in the last 4 or 5 years.

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500Nitro
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: casper50]
      #208852 - 24/05/12 12:35 AM


Casper

I agree, way lower.


What are the bores like (if you know).

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casper50
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: 500Nitro]
      #208854 - 24/05/12 12:39 AM

Quote from blog. "Bright bore and groups very well out to 200yds"

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kuduae
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: pjaln]
      #208855 - 24/05/12 12:42 AM

The scope is not an "early Leupold", but a 1960s 2 1/2 x German Nickel, Marburg. IIRC there was once an article by Jack Lott in a GD on the .425 Westley-Richards. He then wrote about the cheap, unreliable post-WW2 rifles W-R made for some game department. I have to search my GD collection for that.

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500Nitro
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: kuduae]
      #208856 - 24/05/12 12:44 AM


kuduae

Probably the same as Parker Hale made 404's and others made similar cheaper, lower end models.

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Huvius
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: 500Nitro]
      #208858 - 24/05/12 01:06 AM

I'd say it sounds reasonable.
To me, it looks very pre-war and the only thing that pushes it close to WW2 is the Nazi stamp.
I would buy it and then decide where to go with it. The wood looks very solid and anything that bothers you such as the scope mounts, bolt or the sights can be addressed later on.
The W.R. UK site has a little feature that dates any gun with a W.R. serial number.
I would buy it for sure.

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casper50
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: Huvius]
      #208859 - 24/05/12 01:11 AM

Huvius I typed it it but it came up with 1872. Most likely shotgun date. There's no way to search rifles only. I'll search my WR book when I get home. #4699

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Huvius
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: casper50]
      #208861 - 24/05/12 01:29 AM

That is a Mauser number.
I don't think the stock is original to the metal.
Notice the contour on the right side of the loading port? The wood is let out longer than the front ring.
My bet is that the stock is from a 318 W.R. which had the rear of the front ring shaved back. We have seen this done to some 318s but not on any others that I recall.
Any others think this could be?

CORRECTION!
I thought that looked like Rigby wood and recoil lug. I think just maybe it is a 350 Magnum stock!!
Look at all of that filler ahead of the front ring! Add that to the long cutout on the wood at the loading port and it makes me wonder...
Get a shot of the bottom. Bet there is some goofiness around the bottom metal too.
Never heared of using a standard action in a stock let out for a magnum, but I guess it wouldn't be impossibe.

Edited by Huvius (24/05/12 01:35 AM)

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kuduae
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: casper50]
      #208862 - 24/05/12 01:29 AM

Found Jack Lott's article in Gun Digest 1981, page 171. He wrote 41 years ago that the post-WW2 W-R "Game Ranger" rifles lacked the cartridge retaining clips and the careful handfitting. They earned some fame for unreliability because the bolt tended to override the rebated rim of the .425, especially when worked fast in an emergency, causing a solid jam.
I have seen several early post-WW2 British rifles built on German military K98k actions, made not only by W-R, but also by Holland&Holland, Rigby and others. Apart from the typical styling a H&H .375 magnum rifle was of dubious workmanship: Checkering cut lopsided, inletting just so-so. Have also seen a .416 Rigby on such an action excessively opened up. As nearly nothing was left of the lower locking lug recess, the bolt set back after some use. Now the rifle shows excessive headspace. As the supply of original Mauser Oberndorf commercial magnum actions was no more, even "name" British makers used any action they could get.

Edited by kuduae (24/05/12 01:42 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: Huvius]
      #208866 - 24/05/12 01:58 AM


Huvius

I think you are correct. I hadn't noticed the filler.

Well done.


I'd still buy it though as you could always get it restocked
if anything happened.

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Igorrock
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: 500Nitro]
      #208871 - 24/05/12 02:19 AM

Quote:

Found Jack Lott's article in Gun Digest 1981, page 171. He wrote 41 years ago that the post-WW2 W-R "Game Ranger" rifles lacked the cartridge retaining clips and the careful handfitting. They earned some fame for unreliability because the bolt tended to override the rebated rim of the .425, especially when worked fast in an emergency, causing a solid jam.


In the same article Lott wrote that he made his own version of .425 WR named .425 Lott as made from shortened, neck-reamed .404 brass. This ammo is without the rebated rim. There is no need for this rim type if you do not use clip for loading.

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Huvius
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: Igorrock]
      #208873 - 24/05/12 03:00 AM

A 425 on a 404 case would be nice but not much different from the 404 as far as capability goes.
Funny, I passed on a cheap 350 Rigby a couple years ago because the stock had been altered for a sidemount, low bolt and had been shortened. Now this one shows up with a very servicable stock. Between the two, there wouldn't be five grand into a very nice, although non-original, 350 Rigby. And, since I just traded my good one off....oh well...

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Igorrock
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: Huvius]
      #208876 - 24/05/12 03:25 AM

Quote:

A 425 on a 404 case would be nice but not much different from the 404 as far as capability goes.


Yes, the only idea for this Lott´s caliber was easier and cheaper way do ammo for his existing rifle. He just needed two bolts, one for original ammo and an another for his own version.

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kuduae
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: Igorrock]
      #208881 - 24/05/12 03:56 AM

According to the Birmingham proofdate mark the barreled action was proofed in A = 1950. It is entirely possible to fit a standard length M98 action into a stock made for the original Mauser Magnum action, as the screwhole spacing and diameters are the same, contrary to popular belief. People who think otherwise know only the post-WW2 Brevex actions.

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Huvius
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: kuduae]
      #208883 - 24/05/12 04:24 AM

Quote:

According to the Birmingham proofdate mark the barreled action was proofed in A = 1950. It is entirely possible to fit a standard length M98 action into a stock made for the original Mauser Magnum action, as the screwhole spacing and diameters are the same, contrary to popular belief. People who think otherwise know only the post-WW2 Brevex actions.



That is correct.
That is why the recoil lug is located vertically under the center of the receiver ring on a std. action but more rearward below the receiver ring on a magnum action. The extra length is all in the front half of the action but the front screw is located the same in relation to the rear half of the action.

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500grains
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: Huvius]
      #208891 - 24/05/12 07:04 AM

Does it feed?

If not, then...

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500Nitro
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: 500grains]
      #208892 - 24/05/12 07:09 AM

Quote:

Does it feed?

If not, then...




It can be fixed !

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500Nitro
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: 500Nitro]
      #208893 - 24/05/12 07:12 AM


I did like this.

"They earned some fame for unreliability because the bolt tended to override the rebated rim of the .425, especially when worked fast in an emergency, causing a solid jam."

And in the sentence before "that the post-WW2 W-R "Game Ranger" rifles lacked the cartridge retaining clips and the careful handfitting."

That is kind of not surprising that he found the second part over ride / jam) after the first part (lacking retaining clips).

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rigbymauser
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: 500Nitro]
      #208918 - 24/05/12 03:21 PM


I have the Jack Lott artical scanned if anyone is interested. email me at: rigbymauser@yahoo.dk

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: value on a .425 Westley needed [Re: rigbymauser]
      #208932 - 24/05/12 08:11 PM

Jens

Can you send it to me at

John.Hahn AT nitroexpress.net

Thanks.

(Note to others, I only check that email address when expecting something. Please don't send me emails there and expect an answer. It is only for big files.)

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (25/05/12 01:01 AM)

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