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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: nitro476]
      #20735 - 10/11/04 07:18 AM


476nitro

No, I didn't get the buffalo - in fact I plan to walk in next year and camp, set up an OP on a hill
overlooking the swamp and when I find it, go and get it (unless it gets me first !!!).
The prolem was he was feeding on the edge of a very small, flat, dry mud "island" with NO cover.
Although we got within 30 metres, the risk of him not dropping to one shot and running off into the Crocodile
infested swamp was too risky (we had spent 4 hours the day before pulling a buffalo out of a swamp while
someone covered us with a loaded rifle so we didn't want to do it again !!!)
I was carry a 500 Nitro Double - if I had had my 375H&H Bolt gun, I probably would have taken the shot
as I could have brained him.

I know the PH as a personal friend so take this in that light.
The bit that got me on the hunt when we were 30 metres from him, we had cut off his "preferred dry land"
escape route. I was crouched down behind the PH when the PH whispered to me, "what do we do if he charges ?"
My response was - "you stand up and start shooting, I'll jump to the left and start shooting and between the two
of us we should stop him before he gets to us." The PH smiled.

Anyway, re parts - get them from England (which is what I do - I can't tell you where as a friend gets them
and sends them out to me so I don't know his source).

I know the tool you mean - I don't have one but my gunsmith does.

I know you can get all of the pins out, however I think it is easier to do th hook on some guns.

Anyway, keep shooting.

500 Nitro !!!


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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #20741 - 10/11/04 08:49 AM

Excellent! I will tell you one of my buff stories when I get back later tonight! I would love to know how you get the pins, springs and other stuff from Jolly ol England. I really get tired of getting hosed by folks who seem to have a lock on some items in the states! I will be back to you later! Thank you.

DWK


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: nitro476]
      #20743 - 10/11/04 08:59 AM

476niro,

I could tell what was going through the mind of the PH when he smiled
- it was a case of if he charged, it was either us or the buff
as opposed to the PH and the buff - 2 targets are better than 1.

I think they call it stand and deliver !!!

I'll email my mate in the UK and ask. The last parts I got from the UK were the foreend
pieces for a Purdey Shotgun which had corroded and couldn't be rectified. The blanks don't
cost much, it's getting them finished and engraved that costs - I think as soon as they hear
Purdey, Holland etc, the price doubles !!!

Personally, I think you over pay for your work over there.
Who do you use ?

Ever tried Keith Kearcher ? My US friends use him and I was impressed with his attitude and
demeanour when I met him 3 years ago.

500 Nitro


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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #20747 - 10/11/04 12:03 PM

Hi There,

There are two fellows and both are excellent:

1. Pete Mazur is one of the best at resurecting dead doubles and also most antique rifles and shotguns. He is an excellent craftsman and knows these beasts backwards and forward.

2. Steve Heilmann is a fellow that mant think will be in the top 5 in the world. Steve is incredible and really does not mess with double guns at all. I have had him bail me out by welding a broken forend plate. You could not tell it had been broken. This fellow has been in a wheel chair since he was 16 and his work has to be sen to be believed. I looked at a rifle he built for a customers wife that started life as a VZ 24 mauser. He cut the action, reduced the size so it would be perfect for a 222 Remington cartridge. The entire rifle was scaled down as the lady who was to use it was very, very small. I was at Steve's shop when I saw the rifle and asked what the piece cost. He replied, $ 21,000 and my jaw fell open. I can't tell you the things he did to that rifle. It had a full rib with sights that looked as though they grew out of the barrel, as did the rib. The rust blue was incredible, ( done by Pete Mazur) and the Turkish walnut stock was a 2500.000 blank that was to die for! Steve was always busy but would do certain jobs for me and always did them very quickly. I have never seen anyone who could make bolt gun feed Like Steve. I swear the one he did for me feels as though the cartridge is riding on ball bearings!

I was in Zimbabwe, near the Gonarezhou Game preserve and wanted to take a nice Buffalo. I was on a 15 day hunt and on the third day the PH said, "Lets go look for buffalo".

We parked the safari truck after the trackers had noticed fresh spoor. We had walked about one mile when all of a sudden the head tracker froze. We all did the same and he motioned me forward. As I got beside him I could see approximately 10 buffalo about 75 yards out. It was very difficult to see any horns through the scrub so we waited. In a few minutes the herd trotted off and I was told that the wind shifted and they sniffed us out.

We started after them once again and caught up with them in about 45 minutes. Christ it was hot and we were all covered with dirt and sweat. We stopped and once again i was motioned forward. As we sat trying to see if there was a decent head in the group, from my right side came an old bull feeding across our path approximately 35 yards in front of us! I froze and the PH whispered in my ear, " Take him but please make sure you don't make a bad shot at this close range". I raised my 470 and fired the old bull lunged forward and hauled ass out of there. The PH asked, " Did you gut shoot that bull "? I replied that he was dead and we walked in the diection he ran. All of a sudden we heard the familiar death bellow and the old bull was down and as we approached from the rear I gave him a final shot just for the sake of safety.

He was a very nice buff with 42" horns. I was thrilled as I could be and we all shook hands and took some pictures. The head tracker and his helper looked over the bullet wound and found that the Woodleigh solid had entered the left shoulder and exited on the right side. He returned to the area that I shot the bull and located the bullet which was on the opposite side of a small Mopane tree which it had penetrated as well! I still have that slug and I am certain that it could be reloaded and fired again.

A great hunt,as if there are any really bad ones.


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: nitro476]
      #20777 - 10/11/04 10:06 PM

nitro476:
To suggest that anyone on this board would tighten a gun by "throwing a burr or two upon the pin or the hook" is an insult to our collective intelligence IMHO.

I have tightened three pommie doubles by TIG-welding and re-cutting the hook, smoking the surfaces to get the fit perfect. Two were shotguns, one a rifle with chopper-lumps but integral hinge-pin. I can assure you that this IS the way to do it! According to Russell Wilkin, Holland's were using this method for many years, but are now getting better with 'metal spraying', whatever that is!

Two of my Brit doubles have been tightened in the distant past by dove-tailing a piece into the hook, possibly in England. ...and guess what! They kill buffalo like lightning!

..and I do agree, 275 USD is right up there for a spring. Making springs is not rocket-science, they used to cost about 60 AUD when Century Arms was operating. I have even made a mainspring myself for an Alex Henry .577 Express. The exception would be Greener 'Empire' main springs, since they double as the cocking-rod and are a bit tedious to fit!

We are all very happy that your double-gun hunting has been so 'civilized' in the past, nitro476, but as 500Nitro has pointed out, some of us do like to get amongst it occasionally!

...sounds like you might have got a bit of sweat on your .470 on that Zim buff-hunt, though!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: Marrakai]
      #20789 - 11/11/04 03:09 AM

Now I know you old boy's would never do anything like peening the hook but there are several dealers in the states that have done this and worse to try and fool an unsuspecting buyer into purchasing such a clunker!

here is one for you guys: A few years back while attending the winter gun show in Las Vegas, a friend of mine was looking at some shotguns on a well known dealers table. He picked up one that had particularly nice black streaks running thru the butt stock. He happened to run his thumb across one of the streaks near the rear of the stock and guess what? The beautiful streak disappeared!! He showed the dealer, whose face got a very bright red and he claimed that he had just taken the gun in on trade and had no knowledge of this!! Yeah right!

Metal spraying or flame spraying has been used for years in the US. The first time I saw it in use was at United Airlines maintenance base in San Francisco. It is actually a process where the metal part that needs additional material is placed on a motorized pedestal and the operator controls the speed of the revolutions while holding and gun that looks very similar to an arc gouge. When he pulls the trigger the metal roars out of the tip and onto the part on the pedestal. When finished the part is remachined back to it's original tolerances. Very neat.

After two years in Vietnam, I have no intention of getting into mud unless it is absolutely unavoidable! I am also a person who does not like hot temperatures but on the other hand enjoy freezing temps and snow. I love Africa and Alaska but given a choice for a permanent enviornment, I would choose Alaska.

Yep, and the sweat was quickly wiped away!!


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Rusty
.333 member


Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: nitro476]
      #20790 - 11/11/04 03:54 AM

If the person who is buying a used double rifle doesn't have the knowledge required to tell if a double is what it should be, he is a fool not have it checked out by someone who does know.

If the person you are buying the rifle from won't let you get the rifle checked out, then you need to find another rifle.

I have a small circle of friends who I trust to tell me about double rifles. My friends, Mark Cash, aka 400 Nitro Express, Mac, NE450#2, PWN and JJ Perodeau at Champlin Firearms, Enid, Ok.

You have no one else to blame but yourself if you choose not to have the rifle inspected. Just my opine.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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Martin
.224 member


Reged: 15/09/04
Posts: 24
Loc: British
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: nitro476]
      #20791 - 11/11/04 04:13 AM

Hi Nitro476.

To return to your original question. In Europe the Heym is generally very well thought of. Prices are perhaps a little lower here but not much. The 88 box lock is the favoured DB and is available in most calibres, interstingly in a .450 nitro. Nicely upgraded with better wood this gun is definately good value. I've handled one and thought it to be rather nice.

I totally agree with you about "cheaper" English doubles. When they are superb they are absolutely marvolous, but if they're not....... The Heym to a good spec. and a little extra finish runs about $17,000 here. You cannot buy a really top English box lock double, not too old, in beautiful cosmetic condition, in a desirable calibre, for this money. Not everyone wants an antique and there is a special satifation in owning a new gun to your particular spec.

If I were in this market Nitro, given their feel and excelent reputation in Europe, I would definately buy a Heym box lock. We all know it will never feel like an English gun, but then why should it - it's German.

Martin


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: nitro476]
      #20794 - 11/11/04 04:48 AM

nitro476,

Like you, I am not that fond of the heat - it is easier to get warm than cool down.

The only problem is that the Buff live up North so it is a case of no choice !!!

"Now I know you old boy's would never do anything like peening the hook but there are several dealers
in the states that have done this and worse to try and fool an unsuspecting buyer into purchasing such
a clunker!"

It's NOT exclusive to the US - the odd one over here uses the old "squeeze the lumps in the vice" trick
but I think that was more in the past than it is now.

500 Nitro



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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: nitro476]
      #20797 - 11/11/04 05:13 AM

nitro476
I have not had any problem finding good British doubles.
I was at Champlins in Enid OK in Sept and thought at least 3 of the doubles he had would make excellent hunting doubles for me. That is they were in good shape [finish, bores, tight on the face etc.] and fit me pretty good.
I have had my 2 British doubles for about 7 years [bought at Champlins] and in that time I have seen several that would make excellent hunting rifles.
I will admit I prefer British Doubles to all others.
I have had a Chapuis 9,3x74R for about 6 years and I like it very much. It is my favorite rifle under 40 cal.
If I was buying a new made double I would get a Chapuis 470.
My second choice would be a Heym, then Krieghoff.
If I were you I would handle all of the new made doubles and get the one that fits you the best, that is the most important factor to me.
Even seemingly identical new made doubles can fit and feel different. I handled a Chapuis PH II yesterday that fit me better than most of the others I have handled. At Chadicks in Terrell TX he will usually have 3 or 4 470 Chapuis in stock, as well as some 375 H&H and 9,4x74R's. There is usually one or two that just feel better than the others to me.
One of the nice things about the Chapuis is that they are the easiest to scope. My buddy just bought a 470 Chapuis and we are waiting for claw mounts to arrive at Champlins so we can install a 1.5x4 Swarovski with the illuminated circle dot reticle. We all know what a 470 double can do without a scope.... BUT with a scope it becomes the GREATEST POSSIBLE rifle for black bear, lion and leopard over bait, wild pigs, and any other animal where a scope helps a guy with 50+ year old eyes place his shot better.
We will develop loads with the standard 500 grain bullets as well as a @ 350 grain load for smaller big game.
When we shoot it with the scope I will report back on the results.


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wombat
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Australia
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: nitro476]
      #20818 - 11/11/04 10:06 PM

I looked around at the very limited supply of new and old
doubles available in Australia.To say that some of the
"classic" english doubles were being offered at surprisingly high prices by some very "shrewd" dealers is a gross understatement.I liked the look of the the Heym Mod 55B o/u in 470 but the German's were not the least interested in supplying one to the local dealer at a competative price.
In the end I took the gamble and placed an order with Butch Searcy.I can't believe metallurgy has not made any
steps foreward in the last 100 yrs.As far as all that repair nonsense goes-I hope the next person to have trouble with my rifle will be my grandson who is due to be born in about 20 yrs.
If I want legend and mystique I can can find it in abundance at the local library at a very reasonable price-from a rifle I want reliability.


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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: wombat]
      #20823 - 12/11/04 12:33 AM

Well put my friend!

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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: NE450No2]
      #20824 - 12/11/04 12:35 AM

I handled one Chapius at SCI a couple of years back and it felt fine. I have to see if I can try some other guns as well in order to compare.

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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #20825 - 12/11/04 12:38 AM

How hot are you talking about when you say, " Up North"?

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: nitro476]
      #20853 - 12/11/04 05:41 PM

My favourite hunting area (200km inland) will be around 44 degrees centigrade in the shade just after midday tomorrow, with 70 to 80 % humidity. Another 200km south where I sometimes hunt, it will be 46 degrees, that's 115 degrees for you guys on the right-hand-side of the pond.

Closer to home (for walks after work) it is only 34 degrees due to proximity to the ocean, but the humidity can be even higher!

The high temperatures work in our favour because midday to mid-aftrenoon the game animals simply MUST visit a water-source, and damn few still retain enough water for a wallow! Our wet season will start within the month, then things generally cool down considerably, but hunting during the monsoon has its own problems!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: Opinions needed on a new double [Re: Marrakai]
      #20856 - 12/11/04 11:11 PM

Christ that is hot! That sounds like LasVegas temperatures for sure. I was at July guns show a few years back and it was 117 degress. There were actually people laying around the swimming pool and I am certain that they were certifiable by any mental health doctor!!

Edited by nitro476 (14/11/04 10:05 AM)


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