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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

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John303
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Reged: 16/11/06
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Loc: Canada

Mauser calibre ?
#207835 - 29/04/12 11:35 AM

I have recently agreed to purchase a 98 Mauser done up in what I would call "Germanic" style, DSTs, half hex half round barrel, full rib, flattened bolt handle but I digress. Will take some pics. after I have it in hand. The ? is calibre, on the LR it's marked as follows - 2,5gGBP and a large S - is this an 8x60 vs an 8x57? or does the S have another meaning? Any comments appreciated. --- John303

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darwinmauser
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: John303]
#207843 - 29/04/12 12:41 PM

The S was used by the military to denote a 323 bore as opposed to the old 318 bore rifles, you see it a lot on the old model 88 commission rifles. I don't know if that's relevant to your rifle though.

cheers
Pete

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KurtC
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: darwinmauser]
#207899 - 01/05/12 04:55 AM

2.5 grams of GBP is only about 38 grains, which is a pretty light load for even a 8x57. The S is usually a part of Stmg, which merely indicates a jacketed bullet. If the S is on top of the barrel or breech, then it usually indicates a .318 bore that has has the chamber neck opened up to accept .323 Spitzer bullets.

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DarylS
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: KurtC]
#207903 - 01/05/12 08:20 AM

John - your barrel is called an octagon or is octagonal, 1/2 or full length, not hex, 1/2 or otherwise.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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John303
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: DarylS]
#207917 - 01/05/12 12:03 PM

Thank you all for your comments and Daryl - it is tapered octagon to round, I stand corrected. --- John303

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DarylS
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: John303]
#207918 - 01/05/12 01:49 PM

No problem - proper nomenclature is important enough to mention it. I called them hexigons until my fatherpointed out my mistake and showed me the difference.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AFRO408
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: DarylS]
#207921 - 01/05/12 07:48 PM

You hear the same thing a lot over here.

" I've got an old Hex barrelled Winchester in 32-20"

I think it's because 'Hex' is easier to say than 'Octagonal'

I'll bet that there are a lot of people, in the world, that don't know that 'The Pentagon' is a five sided building.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: AFRO408]
#207922 - 01/05/12 08:37 PM

Please post photos of the proofmarks and numbers you find under the barrel! The mark "2,5gGBlP" = 2.5 gramm (military)rifle flake powder gives the standard charge for the smokeless 8x57 load. As this mark was only used up to 1912, it probably indicates an I = .318" bullet bore. You will probably find the following proofmarks under the barrel: a big crown, a small crown over N indicating nitro proof using the 4000at special proof powder, and the gauge number 172,28. Only if the gauge number is 156,14 it may be a S =.323" barrel.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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John303
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: kuduae]
#208553 - 18/05/12 11:30 PM

Well I finally have the gun in hand and over-all I'm pleased - the price was right. It has some rust below the water line and it's been re-blued - I think. The stock needs TLC which I can do myself. The underside action #s do not match barrel but the barrel and action re-stamp are the same. Any way; on the under side are these marks - on barrel - Ideal Gun, any insight on this would be welcome - 7.7 mm - a K in a gear? - Crown over N + just a Crown on barrel & action. I'm not that great at pics. but will try and forward to a willing member to post. Had claw mts, I'll have to look around for some old replacements. --- John303.

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kuduae
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: John303]
#208571 - 19/05/12 08:02 AM

The "K in gear" may be a mark of the Suhl barrelmaker family Kelber. 7.7mm is the bore diameter at the time of proof. It may have been just short of 7.8mm, as it was measured using cylindrical gages. You have to add the groove depth. This marking is correct for the 8x57I with .318" bullets. The CROWN - crown/N proofmarks indicate pre-1923 proof using the "4000atm" special proof powder. As the bore diameter is given in mm and there are no other numbers, the gun was proofed in Suhl post-April 1, 1912.

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John303
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: kuduae]
#208576 - 19/05/12 09:31 AM

Thanks kuduae, I've taken the gun apart and all action #'s match, the DSTs are integral to the bottom metal and not a separate unit, there is an eagle with up raised wings on the barrel. I thought at first the full rib was an add on but it's an integral part of the barrel front ramp and all. The bore is near perfect - sharp and bright. Anybody have any idea about the Ideal Gun stamp. The only thing I found is some reference to Marlin but I fail to see the connection unless of course the gun was made for / sold through Ideal Gun? --- John303.

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kuduae
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: John303]
#208599 - 19/05/12 11:12 PM

Does your rifle show proofmarks like these? These are the proofmarks introduced July 23,1893 as special markings for proofing rifles chambered for the M88 cartridge, aka 8x57I with the 4000atm proof cartridge.

Mostlikely your rifle was built on a Mauser, Oberndorf commercial action. The set trigger mounted directly to the triggerguard is evidence. Prior to WW1 anyone wanting to build a M98 action rifle had to buy a commercial action from Mauser first, as there were no surplus actions and the Mauser patents were still valid. Mauser then sold about two thirds of their commercial production as actions only to other gunmakers. These actions were not "Mauser"-marked, but are easily identified and dated by the Mauser commercial serial numbers found under the receiver ring and on the rear wall of the magazine box.
You also mention an eagle stamp on the barrel. Does it look like this one?

This eagle is a military acceptance stamp applied by the Prussian Spandau arsenal in 1915. During the first part of WW1 many scoped sporting rifles volunteered and soldiered as stop-gap sniping rifles. As such, they are not only fine sporting rifles, but pieces of military history as well, as these were the first modern scoped rifles used for sniping. Wrote an article about these now rare militarized sporters in "Waidmannsheil # 47", a publication of the German Gun Collectors Ass., www.germanguns.com .

Edited by CptCurl (26/05/12 09:34 AM)

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John303
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: kuduae]
#208622 - 20/05/12 03:08 AM

Yes the marks in your pics. are the same as on mine and the action numbers are where you say, in this case # 51354 (might mean something?). Some other stuff also which puzzles me is that Ideal Gun stamp but also on the front ring mount it has Parker Hale. Is it just possible that the rifle was "captured" by the Allies and re-issued to their "snipers"? --- John303.

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kuduae
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: John303]
#208630 - 20/05/12 05:46 AM

The Mauser, Oberndorf commercial serial number 51354 dates the action to 1912, thanks Jon Speed.
By mid-1916 German ordnance had finally figured out how to convert the infantry rifle Gewehr 98 into the scoped Scharfschützengewehr 98. Now the stop-gap sporting rifles were withdrawn from the frontlines and put into storage. As riflescopes were in short supply, the scopes were removed from the retired sporters and mounted on the regulation sniper rifles. So not one of the military accepted sporters retains it's original scope. IMHO the Parker-Hale base was added post-WW2, after the rifle was finally liberated in 1945, to mount a scope. Also, the "ideal gun" marking appears spurious to me, as it is applied with single letter stamps. I don't know Canadian gun registration laws, but German law now requires every gun to be marked with a maker's name or a "known" trademark. Many old noname "trade" guns are crudely ascribed now to a "maker" in this way.
As your rifle was accepted for military service, see the eagle stamp, there should have been a military registration number with either a D or Z prefix stamped into the right side of the buttstock. If a D prefix number, there should be the traces of four pinholes also. Here a warning plate was applied, reading "Nur für Patrone 88" = only for cartridge M88/8x57I.

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kuduae
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: kuduae]
#208632 - 20/05/12 06:21 AM

John303, here are some of your photos.

Edited by CptCurl (26/05/12 09:34 AM)

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kuduae
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: kuduae]
#208670 - 21/05/12 02:12 AM

Hi John303, the stock does not look too bad to me. Apparently the right side of the butt was thoroughly sanded to remove the military markings, the area appears to be dished or flattened in your photos. Nevertheless I would try to retain it: repair the broken or split wrist using glass bedding compound and perhaps crosspins, glassbed the recoil lug area (a frequent cause for a split stock), make and fit a new wedge to the foreend slot and carefully refinish it. The stock shows a lot of history, scrubbed and misused as it is. To find another, better sporter stock still with the military markings is hopeless IMHO, as these pre-WW1 sporters with a fighting career are now rarer than hen's teeth.

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Rule303
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: kuduae]
#208726 - 22/05/12 06:38 AM

John303 your rifle looks like it has some history behind it. A good find.

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John303
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Reged: 16/11/06
Posts: 243
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: Rule303]
#208761 - 22/05/12 11:44 PM

Thank you all for your input on this topic and special thanks to kuduae for his knowledge of such things, his willingness to share it and his advice is truly appreciated. I'm still a bit in awe, I and the seller had absolutely no idea what we were dealing with. Being somewhat a history buff and addicted to Mausers I can't believe my luck. I realize that about 95% of the original finish is gone but what the heck sometimes you can't have it all but what you have is still significant. Maybe now more will "turn up" --- John303

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John303
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: John303]
#209491 - 30/05/12 09:05 AM

Just an update (to those interested) on this "project". Taking kuduae's suggestion I decided to "save" the stock. First step was to strip (no sanding) that old dark finish to expose the past fixes and the somewhat unusual graining. It turned out to be only partially split at the wrist and a crack behind the rear tang, both repaired - quite well IMHO. The checkering was in good shape once cleaned up - no need to redo any part of it. Had to add some pieces to the fore-end tip as that were completely missing. The cleanup exposed the four holes on the left side used to attach the warning shield and the remnants of the stamp code are just visible but not readable. Also found two small holes just behind the cheek piece, what they were used for I don't know. I know some may wince at my efforts but as I stated before most of the original finishes (metal & wood) are long gone. --- John303.

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: kuduae]
#209726 - 01/06/12 09:02 AM

Quote:

Does your rifle show proofmarks like these? These are the proofmarks introduced July 23,1893 as special markings for proofing rifles chambered for the M88 cartridge, aka 8x57I with the 4000atm proof cartridge.

Mostlikely your rifle was built on a Mauser, Oberndorf commercial action. The set trigger mounted directly to the triggerguard is evidence. Prior to WW1 anyone wanting to build a M98 action rifle had to buy a commercial action from Mauser first, as there were no surplus actions and the Mauser patents were still valid. Mauser then sold about two thirds of their commercial production as actions only to other gunmakers. These actions were not "Mauser"-marked, but are easily identified and dated by the Mauser commercial serial numbers found under the receiver ring and on the rear wall of the magazine box.
You also mention an eagle stamp on the barrel. Does it look like this one?

This eagle is a military acceptance stamp applied by the Prussian Spandau arsenal in 1915. During the first part of WW1 many scoped sporting rifles volunteered and soldiered as stop-gap sniping rifles. As such, they are not only fine sporting rifles, but pieces of military history as well, as these were the first modern scoped rifles used for sniping. Wrote an article about these now rare militarized sporters in "Waidmannsheil # 47", a publication of the German Gun Collectors Ass., www.germanguns.com .

Axel are you sure that the mm stamp to be pre 1910 instead of post and that the July 23rd, 1893 special stamp to be as follows including the plug gauge diameter:

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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MarkPoley
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: ellenbr]
#210752 - 12/06/12 10:35 AM

John303, Glad to see that you are cleaning up and repairing the stock on this rifle. Very nice rifle , would love to see pictures after you are finished. Thanks for sharing this with us.

--------------------
Acts 4: 12-13 ; Rom. 8:29

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kuduae
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Re: Mauser calibre ? [Re: ellenbr]
#210806 - 13/06/12 04:23 AM

Quote:

Axel are you sure that the mm stamp to be pre 1910 instead of post and that the July 23rd, 1893 special stamp to be as follows including the plug gauge diameter:

kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I don't remember writing the CROWN-crown/N proofmarks with the bore diameter given as mm to be pre-1910? Instead,I wrote above that the Mauser, Oberndorf commercial serial number dates the action to early 1912, so the barreled action must have been proofed after this date. It was not proofed by the Mehlis proofhouse, as this always added date of proof and ledger number since 1911. The 2.5 gramm charge was the standard sevice charge of the 8x57 with the 14.7 gramm bullet from 1910 on, neatly rounded up from 2.45g. The changes in 8x57 service powder charges, 2.75g from 1888 to 1901, 2.67g 1901-1910, 2.45g (=2.5g)from 1910 on, don't show altered ballistics or proof pressure, but rapid advances in smokeless powder technology. All 8x57 rifles showing the CROWN-crown/N proofmark were proofed by firing the prescribed "4000 atm Beschusspatrone". Thes proofmarks had the gauge number added up to 1911 (Z-M)- 1912 (Suhl), mm afterwards.

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