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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3525
Loc: Colorado
William Evans 20b Paradox
      #206156 - 29/03/12 01:27 PM

I have been wanting to add a ball and shot gun to the collection for a long time and after looking at a couple (and selling a couple guns to offset the purchase) I finally got into what I consider to be one of the jewels of rifle choked guns.
It is a 20 bore William Evans best sidelock and although not highly engraved, it is in beautiful original condition.
It has seven groove chokes just as a Holland and Holland has, a pistol grip and wonderful swamped barrels sighted for 50 and 100yds.
It was made for then Commander Marion Eppley whom was quite a notable figure.
http://foundationcenter.org/grantmaker/eppley/

I have ten rounds made up by Tom Armbrust in my hot little hands waiting in anticipation of getting to the range soon.



















--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by CptCurl (04/04/12 08:51 PM)

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MikeRowe
.333 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: Huvius]
      #206159 - 29/03/12 01:48 PM

Ben, that's a lovely little gun, er, rifle?

Should be quite the tool for hogs. Can't wait to see some authentic diagrams.

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: MikeRowe]
      #206160 - 29/03/12 01:54 PM

So very nice!

Can't wait for the range report.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: Huvius]
      #206164 - 29/03/12 02:33 PM

A very rare rifled choke gun and well conditioned. Does it have ejectors?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: gatsby]
      #206167 - 29/03/12 03:53 PM


Beautiful gun. Nice addition that will shine in the collection. Looking foreward to the rangerepot.

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470evans
.333 member


Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
      #206183 - 30/03/12 01:22 AM

Very nice addition, congratulations!

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: 470evans]
      #206193 - 30/03/12 05:38 AM

Oh BOY - just look at those muzzles with ratchet rifling - lovely shape - you DOG you. What a find!
I'm jealous - does it show?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39248
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: DarylS]
      #206243 - 30/03/12 09:24 PM

Very nice.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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vagrouser
.300 member


Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 104
Loc: usa
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: NitroX]
      #206262 - 31/03/12 05:15 AM

Fantastic Ben--I can only imagine how pleased you must be!

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: vagrouser]
      #206263 - 31/03/12 05:58 AM

Wow! That is a nice find!

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CommandCar
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: Huvius]
      #206728 - 08/04/12 01:51 AM

Quote:

I have ten rounds made up by Tom Armbrust in my hot little hands waiting in anticipation of getting to the range soon.



H,

Do you mind sharing the load that Tom has set up for you? Your double really looks like the muzzle of the Fauneta, but the WR 20's did not have a 50 yard leaf. More over, the difference in height between the 50 and 100 leaves suggests a more standard Paradox loading (somewhere between 1050 & 1250 fps) Holland used the more anemic loading, but probabally a safer way to start. Have you tried Roger Lake? He was rooting around the W. Evans archives and has quite a bit of information on the B&S guns. My Evans, 12 bore, was listed as a Paradox in the records and the load data is inscribed on the rib. Do you have any markings indicating the load? Do you know the build date?

Moulds for the Holland type 20 bore HP slug (425gr) can be provided by either John Millar or Mike Rowe. You can get a modern or the original H&H mould from these fellows. CBE makes a unique modern brass mould for the same slug with a really neat fixed pin HP setup (I have a spare if you do not want to wait a year).

John Millar made the slug that is being used by Tom in the Fauneta loadings.

I disassembled a Eley 20 bore paradox round and have the weight of the chopped cordite recorded, but not in hand at the moment. It looked exactly like this; http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=278863284#PIC

Very nice find.

CC

Edited by CommandCar (08/04/12 08:02 AM)

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #206754 - 08/04/12 09:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have ten rounds made up by Tom Armbrust in my hot little hands waiting in anticipation of getting to the range soon.



H,

Do you mind sharing the load that Tom has set up for you? Your double really looks like the muzzle of the Fauneta, but the WR 20's did not have a 50 yard leaf.

CC



The bores do not look like a Fauneta. The few I have seen have 3 groove rifling. If someone has a 20 bore Westley and has 7 groove please let us know. Getting good info ie bore and choke measurements on the Fauneta and the Holland 20 paradox is very difficult.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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CommandCar
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: gatsby]
      #206756 - 08/04/12 10:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I have ten rounds made up by Tom Armbrust in my hot little hands waiting in anticipation of getting to the range soon.



H,

Do you mind sharing the load that Tom has set up for you? Your double really looks like the muzzle of the Fauneta, but the WR 20's did not have a 50 yard leaf.

CC



The bores do not look like a Fauneta. The few I have seen have 3 groove rifling. If someone has a 20 bore Westley and has 7 groove please let us know. Getting good info ie bore and choke measurements on the Fauneta and the Holland 20 paradox is very difficult.



I stand corrected, you are right Gatspy. I guess I was initially struck by the barrel thickness at the muzzle. As I review the photo and compare it to a Fauneta, the Evans has much more convergence built in. The Fauneta barrels at the muzzle do not touch. More evidence that the Evans is a normal 20 Paradox, if there really is such a thing.

Huvius, Be careful with the Armbrust loads, there was another guy with a Simpson 20 paradox that tried the Fauneta loads, no harm done - but there could have been. If Tom is using the Primex 513 that may be a signal that you are going in the wrong direction. I personally, would stick with Blue Dot or Unique, just a guess though... Be careful

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3525
Loc: Colorado
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #206767 - 08/04/12 01:53 PM

The previous owner had Tom make up the shells and then never fired the gun.
I am always wary about shooting other's loads so plan on talking to Tom before doing anything. I do think they are loaded with the Primex powder and are the faster of the paradox loads.
Hopefully William Evans will respond to my email and shed a little light on the gun and proper loads.
CC, i would certainly be interested in your mold if I am able to load my own cartridges.
Also, what shot loads would be appropriate for this gun? I have a couple boxes of vintage Peters 7/8oz paper shells that would be nice to use if appropriate.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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CommandCar
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: Huvius]
      #206795 - 09/04/12 05:32 AM

H,

I would suggest you try a variety of shot loads. From what I read, in general, fiber wads are prefeered. That being said I have not found an ideal load for my Evans. Some pattern well, but print low, could be a stock fit thing, but my eyes line up right for the slug sights. The best load I have found to date for my 12 is a Gamebore English fiber loaded 65mm (2 1/2") shell. They make a 20 ga 2 1/2" fiber load in British shot sizes (you want 6's), loaded to British pressures. They sold direct to me since there was no dealer nearby. Ask for Linda Barnhart http://www.kentgamebore.com/?p=184

Another brand that is good for (easy on) English doubles is RST. They have a variety of shells suitable for your Evans, including paper hull 20 ga shells. They will ship direct to your door. http://www.rstshells.com/
Be carful with the American stuff, we use SAAMI specs when loading and the pressure is most often too much for a vintage firearm.

Then there is reloading. You will want to focus on loads in the 8,500 PSI max range. Sorry I can not be more specific.

BTW, what length are you chambers?

I think you will have better luck with Roger Lake than by going to Wm. Evans directly. I went to them and got a photo copy of the ledger entry for my gun. There was very little information in the entry and it took months to get, but was free. Roger's contact info can be found here: http://www.tavee.us/ParadoxHorsleySite/ParadoxHorsley.html
Just be prepared to supply those fantastic photos for inclusion in Volume II, he will want them.

I'd throw out the Armbrust (Marty Sands) loads. Look at this, crossing and low means velocity is too high - http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=158706&page=all

I am WRF in that story...

Edited by CommandCar (09/04/12 05:38 AM)

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WildCattle
.275 member


Reged: 22/03/06
Posts: 95
Loc: Northern California
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: Huvius]
      #207324 - 19/04/12 02:15 AM

This is quite a find.
A beautiful Webley screw grip with Holland style bar action sidelocks which has seen almost no use apparently. Not bad for a 104 year old gun!
Best of luck in your load development task.

A as side note, I don't think that I have ever seen a pre WWII Evans gun that was not a Webley or Webley and Scott. Evans was particularly fond of the screw grip, just as I am.

Best regards,
WC

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: WildCattle]
      #207358 - 19/04/12 10:18 AM

Very, very nice indeed.

--------------------
~

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3525
Loc: Colorado
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #214057 - 05/08/12 12:31 AM

Quote:

...I'd throw out the Armbrust (Marty Sands) loads. Look at this, crossing and low means velocity is too high...



You aint just whistlin Dixie there Brother!

Looks to me like the Armbrust loads are WAY too fast!
Shot one pair at 25yds just to see how things looked before goung out to 100yds and they crossed by about seven inches! Unfortunately, I don't have a chronograph so I am not sure what the velocity really was and I am not inclined to shoot any more in the Evans so I may never know.
So...I am going to have to get some slower loads from him or somewhere else.
The holes were nice and round though and on the same plane so that is encouraging. (the other two holes are from .45 Colt bullets)



--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by CptCurl (14/10/12 10:41 PM)

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: Huvius]
      #214058 - 05/08/12 01:06 AM

The Armbrust load chrony's between 1400fps and 1500fps. At one time Roger Lake thought there were two loadings for the Holland 20 bore both slower than the WR loading.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: William Evans 20b Paradox [Re: Huvius]
      #217225 - 26/09/12 12:34 PM

Sorry for the late response, Haven't been signed in for a while. Bear market blues I guess, working harder for less...

PM me if you would like to touch base. Still love the Evans, I've asked to be buried with my 12, just kidding, but not much...

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