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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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drbd
.224 member


Reged: 29/11/11
Posts: 43
Loc: belgium
577 light
      #205066 - 13/03/12 08:47 AM

I'm new to this forum and until now my largest calibre is a .375 H-H and a 45/70. By browsing this forum I became very interested in the .577 light nitro (Marrakai's stories). Some time ago there was a forum member building one on a 10g S/S shotgun but I cannot find this post back.
Would this cartridge fit in a Ruger N1 or a martini shotgun?
Best regards,
Benny

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: 577 light [Re: drbd]
      #205068 - 13/03/12 09:37 AM

It'll fit a Riger #1 just fine. There's a full Nitro 577 3" for sale here in the swap and sell area even. I don't know about the Martni though.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3555
Loc: Colorado
Re: 577 light [Re: AkMike]
      #205081 - 13/03/12 02:14 PM

I would think that a 577 2.75" would fit in a Martini, maybe even the three inch but probably no point in going longer in a Martini even if you could.
Welcome to NE!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: 577 light [Re: Huvius]
      #205086 - 13/03/12 04:05 PM

I'm not sure that a 2 3/4" straight case could turn that corner. DD will know for sure when he stops by,.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: 577 light [Re: AkMike]
      #205105 - 13/03/12 09:32 PM

I was thinking somebody built a .577 2 3/4" on a large Martini, but perhaps it was a dream.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: 577 light [Re: drbd]
      #205143 - 14/03/12 07:44 AM

10 gauge 3.5" mag. double shotguns have been converted successfully to the full charge .577 3"
Overall final weight has been kept at about 13 to 14 pounds, in well balanced double rifle for caliber.

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drbd
.224 member


Reged: 29/11/11
Posts: 43
Loc: belgium
Re: 577 light [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #205147 - 14/03/12 09:21 AM

Thank you all for the quick replies. It is truly a joy to be on this forum.
Does anyone have experience with the conversion of a 10ga double to .577? Just wondering...

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577 light [Re: drbd]
      #205150 - 14/03/12 09:28 AM

Quote:

Thank you all for the quick replies. It is truly a joy to be on this forum.
Does anyone have experience with the conversion of a 10ga double to .577? Just wondering...




Any reason for using a 10g when a 12 would be sufficient ?

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drbd
.224 member


Reged: 29/11/11
Posts: 43
Loc: belgium
Re: 577 light [Re: 500Nitro]
      #205152 - 14/03/12 09:37 AM

Not really- I remember a member doing the conversion on a Zabala 10g -but I can find this post(Blaine..... was the name of the person who reported on this issue if I recall this correctly). But indeed- Marrakai's Greener is a 12ga...

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577 light [Re: drbd]
      #205153 - 14/03/12 09:54 AM

Quote:

Not really- I remember a member doing the conversion on a Zabala 10g -but I can find this post(Blaine..... was the name of the person who reported on this issue if I recall this correctly). But indeed- Marrakai's Greener is a 12ga...




Correct, Greener Empire Model 12 Gauge. I used to own it but Marrakai wanted it more than I did.

I wish I hadn't sold it to him, he deafened me with it once out bush when he had to shoot a charging pig and didn't have time for niceties like "get out of the way"

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577 light [Re: 500Nitro]
      #205157 - 14/03/12 12:34 PM

I have a .577 2 3/4 NE on a Martini Action.

Do not use a Greener Martini split shotgun action, use only a solid action

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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MikeRowe
.333 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: 577 light [Re: DoubleD]
      #205159 - 14/03/12 01:18 PM

I made some tools and repaired a lock for a client's hammer double .577 with 2 1/2" case last year.

It shoots 110 Grains of black and a hardened round ball just wonderfully. It is very comfortable to shoot, and has 24" barrels so it's a handy little rifle. Just the ticket for pigs in the thick stuff.

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: 577 light [Re: MikeRowe]
      #205173 - 14/03/12 09:42 PM

I think the .577 2 3/4" is a wonderful cartridge. Of course, we really are talking about the .577 BPE and the use of nitro-for-black loads. Believe me, the .577 2 3/4" BPE was and is a formidable round capable of taking very large critters with aplomb.

I consider myself to be fortunate to own a magnificant rifle in this chambering (though I had to pay through the nose for it). It's an Alexander Henry double that I chased for some years. I shared it on this forum here:

Alexander Henry .577 2 3/4" Double Rifle

In the referenced thread I discussed my earliest efforts at load development, and there was an interesting discussion with Marrakai in which we speculate about when my rifle was made. It has a relatively high serial number yet pre-1887 proofs.

Here is an article I wrote and self-published in which I discuss some techniques I developed for loading paper patched bullets for this and other BPE rifles:

A Few Tricks With Paper Patched Bullets

Marrakai certainly telegraphs a strong message of how wonderful these rifles are. I also recall an article written by Sherman Bell for the Double Gun Journal in which he tells his experiences hunting feral buffalo in Australia's Northern Territory using just such a rifle and cast bullets.

Good stuff all.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Paul
.400 member


Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: 577 light [Re: CptCurl]
      #205175 - 15/03/12 12:18 AM

The .577 BPE, throwing a soft-lead 650gr bullet, was apparently Sir Samuel Baker's favourite for dangerous big game. At 1650fps the energy is about 4000 ft lb, about the same as the .450/400. But being 400fps slower than the .400, I would imagine the 577NfB loads giving an even gentler push at the back end.

Edited by Paul (15/03/12 12:20 AM)

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 577 light [Re: drbd]
      #205188 - 15/03/12 06:43 AM

Like Curl, I too have a 2 3/4" BPE double rifle. I replicate Curl's load and it shoots ok. It is actually a light light .577 at around 9.5 lbs.

Impressive shooting a gong at 40 yards.

It's on my list as the next rifle to kill with

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: 577 light [Re: drbd]
      #205190 - 15/03/12 07:25 AM

500Nitro and drbd,
Yes, the .577 2 3/4" is a BPE, and is lower breach pressure than full blown .577 3" nitro, even when using Nitro for black cartridges. Converting 12 gauge shotgun to .577 3" nitro is not adequate, but 10 ga. 3.5" mag. is. Shotgun actions are much smaller than double rifle actions, when considering older ones made from mild steel only. They lacked the strength of modern high strength alloy steel actions. 12 gauge Conversions using older mild steel actions works well for .450 NE---.470 and similar, and .500/.416, but are borderline for .500 NE and simply too small for .577. The fellow who showed pictures of his 10 ga. conversion on this site, using a Spanish sxs boxlock, was "Blaine" from Washington state. A very skilled gunsmith friend in Montana, now deceased, converted three similar Spanish 10 ga. mag. to .577 3", and I converted four too, all having well fitting Greener crossbolts. At one time, I had access to a British boxlock sxs double rifle, .577 3" nitro; taking precision measurements of the action, finding it almost the exact same size as these big Spanish actions, so they are most suitable and very strong. Using such an action allows final rifle weight to be around 13 pounds, well balanced, or even more weight, if desired.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577 light [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #205193 - 15/03/12 07:30 AM


DRJ

Thanks for that. Cleared it all up.

I have worked out why the confusion, I was talking 2 3/4",
others were talking 3".

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Sarg
.400 member


Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: 577 light [Re: 500Nitro]
      #205199 - 15/03/12 11:18 AM

500Nitro, I dont think it needed clearing up, the original poster asked about Light 577 , which most people take as Nitro for Black loads, this can be in (or shorter) 2 3/4in , 3in or 3 1/4in as there were Black powder rifles in these lengths & most had a LN load for them, the 3 1/4in being in a heavy rifle can be very powerful , close to 2 3/4in Nitro loads !

The rifle to make, for me is a LN 577 in 3in (saves on the case work) & using light 577NE 2 3/4in loads, this can be made on a 12ga action, there is a big difference between 12Ga actions how ever as some are as big/heavy as a 10ga !

I just missed another Top lever hammerless 577BPE 3in, so I'm going to get one made now bugger it !

Unless you can get me old Stumpy from up North ?

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577 light [Re: Sarg]
      #205200 - 15/03/12 11:22 AM

Quote:


Unless you can get me old Stumpy from up North ?




LOL, get in the queue


You know I talked to the owner a few years ago about Old Stumpy, if I had handed over the $$$$ I would have had it
but due to who the owner was, I wasn't prepared to hand
over the $$$$.

I a sure you understand that !!!

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: 577 light [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #205247 - 16/03/12 07:24 AM

Doubleriflejack,
I am getting ready to build a .577 light nitro rifle on a Mercury 10 gauge 3 1/2 inch frame. I will be using three inch cases and reamer but I want to load it the same as the 2 3/4 light nitro loading. Do you think in this case that the rifle needs to weigh 13 pounds? I was going to shoot for a finished weight of 10 1/2 to 11 pounds, is that too light for the recoil involved? This shot gun had the barrels ruined by some guy trying to put screw in choke tubes in it. Then the current owner cut the barrels back to 26 inches. As it stands now, the gun weighs 10 pounds 4 ounces. It has the Greener crossbolt and the action is 2.6 inches across the face. It was proofed at 850 KGS and I'm making a guess that that is per square centimeter, is that correct?
What would this proof be in pounds per square inch and what kind of loads should we proof it for? I think a 650 grain bullet at 1800 FPS is plenty of power for the new rifle, I am just wondering what the pressure is on that load and what level would you proof it at for that load? Should I fill the additional space up in the case with shotgun wads or some kind of fluffy fiber filler? Thanks to all for any help on this project. I am a little in the dark here because this is quite a bit bigger than anything I have built to date. Bob

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577 light [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #205249 - 16/03/12 08:02 AM


BH50

I have shot the Marrakai gun and 10.5 lbs should be fine.
Stick a good recoil pad on it like a Limbsaver.

I don't understand why everyone likes the 3" case over the 2 3/4" case when they are loading it as a light nitro, especially when fillers etc are needed.

Just my HO.

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: 577 light [Re: 500Nitro]
      #205287 - 16/03/12 10:42 PM

500Nitro,
My reasons for using the 3 inch case is because the guy I doing it for already has the reamer and the three inch cases. I tried to talk him into cutting them back to 2 3/4 inches but he refused. I think the WOW factor has alot to do with it. The cases could easily be cut down but he has the three inch chamber reamer already. What would it hurt to chamber it with that reamer but mark it and use it with the lighter 2 3/4 loads, but put up in three inch cases? Since this is really not a high pressure gun, will that cause any problems? What would you recommend as a filler? Dacron fiber? Bob

Edited by Birdhunter50 (18/03/12 12:26 AM)

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577 light [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #205289 - 16/03/12 11:10 PM


I wouldn't chamber for 3" and use 2 3/4"

You will eventually bell the end of the chamber
and then the case mouth will expand into it and
make it damn hard to get out.

I had a 500 BPE Double that was like this and
ended up off loading it in the auctions.


Some people say it will never happen but over the
years it will.


Why not buy a 2 3/4" reamer and some cases,
2 3/4" cases will always be available, you can't
guarantee 3" will be IMHO.

BTW - Is he a gunsmith ? Doesn't the client determine what the gunsmith does as opposed to the other way round ?

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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: 577 light [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #205304 - 17/03/12 06:17 AM

Bidhunter50,
No, for your intended conversion, finished weight certainly doesn't need to be 13 pounds; 10.5 or so pounds is just fine. I have several fine British double rifles in .577 BPE, and they weight right at your projected weight range.

Yes, some of the Spanish 10 gauge 3.5 inch magnum boxlock sxs doubles had Greener crossbolts, but some did not.

I leaned the double shotgun to double rifle conversion process from W. Ellis Brown, in gunsmithing class at Tech College in MN, prior to his writing his book on same subject; I follow pretty much his whole process. I strongly suggest that anyone who is anticipating doing this sort of conversion work to get and use his book. Regarding proof load for cartridge you plan using, 650 grain bullet @ 1800 fps, determine what powder load you need and will use to regulate the rifle, and obtain bullets 10% heavier than that--THOSE WILL BE YOUR PROOF LOADS, not your normally used service loads. If you need specific loading data for your service loads, send me a private email, and I will look up my loading data that you may wish to use. As to breach pressures of the .577 BPE, 650 grain bullet, I don't have it at hand, but do have that data in my reference material, so if you must have it, send me a PM. I will need time to look it up. Yes, beyond doubt, for sure, use dacron fiber filler for filling excess space in cartridge cases----I have used it for over 50 years in various loads, full nitro and nitro for black, and it has always worked for me!!

Edited by doubleriflejack (17/03/12 06:22 AM)

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Sarg
.400 member


Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: 577 light [Re: 500Nitro]
      #205317 - 17/03/12 10:49 AM

"Why not buy a 2 3/4" reamer and some cases,
2 3/4" cases will always be available, you can't
guarantee 3" will be IMHO."

Actually 3in is more common, very few 2 3/4NE made in recent years, just use more filler if you want to use the longer 3in shells in your chamber, this is not the best route, but do able.

I don't normally use shorter case's in long chambers , but I don't see it being a "real" problem, millions of 38Spl are shot in 357Mag chambers & 22 short were shot in 22LR, the worst was a carbon build up, in most case's, I'm sure there has been problems in the last 200 years with soft metals & black powder/Cordite, but if you clean your chambers & don't use it like a range/target rifle , I'm sure it would be Ok.

On the filler I have been using Dacron filler for years , other than it needs to be cleaned very well, as it has helped pit some of my bores, I think because the particle's trap moisture or some thing, it has been great .

I now use Backer Rod/Foam, far easy to use & more consistent , on this I read a report on pressure testing done with the 2 fillers & Dacron had inconsistent pressure & spikes, where foam was very consistent.

The Dacron results could be from loading form to as it is a little harder to be consistent, unless you weigh each Dacron ball ?

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