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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Phil_in_the_UK
.275 member


Reged: 30/04/03
Posts: 60
Loc: United Kingdom
Mad Prices
      #20474 - 05/11/04 06:30 AM

Gentlemen

I found the following double previously owned by Denys Finch Hatton, lots of history for all the romantics amongst us, but what a price, that’s 184,000 dollars.

So what do you think, can any double, no matter the history be worth this kind of money?

Is this a ridiculous price?

Without the history, what do you feel its value would be?

Sorry, I’m not sure how to get the pictures to work.








Charles Lancaster '450 NE (3 1/4) Back action non-ejector (formerly ejector) double barreled big game rifle
Double Barreled '450 NE Big Game Rifle which was the personal weapon of Hon. Denys Finch Hatton, Big game hunter and lover of Karen Bloxen (Out of Africa).

Completed in 1911 and re-barreled in 1928. Silver escutcheon with D.F.H initials and the date 1925.

In its original leather red beige lined case with initials D.F.H. This rifle is extremely accurate and a target is available.

Denys Finch Hatton was born in England on April 24th 1887, the son of Henry Stormont Finch Hatton, Earl of Winchelsea and Anne Finch Hatton (nee Coddrington), a daughter of a former Admiral of the British Fleet. Educated at Eton and Balliol College, Oxford, Denys was a natural sportsman and scholar of the arts. In 1911 the 24 year old Denys bought land in British East Africa as an investment which would give him the freedom to spend his time hunting. He would spend every Autumn and Winter in Africa doing just that.

In 1925 he became a professional big game hunter and took numerous wealthy and distinguished clients on safari - including H.R.H. the Duke of Windsor (the then Prince of Wales). His taste for adventure led him to learn to fly, and it was on May 14th 1931 that he died in a fatal plane crash in his Gypsy Moth near what is now the Tsave National Park, Kenya. He is buried in the Ngong Hills and an obelisk marks his grave to this day.

The story of Denys Finch Hatton and his love affair with Karen Blixen (his only known romance) is immortalised by Robert Redford and Meryl Streep in the Academy Award winning film "Out of Africa" (1985).
£100,000

Regards

Phil


Edited by NitroX (06/11/04 02:11 AM)

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Mad Prices [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #20476 - 05/11/04 06:53 AM

It's a baaagaan! That rifle was in the Double gun Journal last year and the gent who bought it paid 30,000 GBP at an auction - quite a mark-up i'd say!

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Mad Prices [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #20479 - 05/11/04 07:48 AM


Apparently some people think that the identity of persons who have touched an object in the past makes the object worth significant more than similar ones not so touched. But not me.

I would give US$12K for the rifle if it still in good regulation with no stock cracks, no significant bore damage, and no buggered up screws.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Mad Prices [Re: bonanza]
      #20480 - 05/11/04 07:51 AM


That's not half the story.

I was on the phone to the Auction house bidding when it was sold.

John Orminston (?Sp) had the original case for it and so wanted the rifle.

A lady (don't know who) also wanted to buy the gun for her husband for some reason.

Well the price just went on, and on, and on, and on etc etc. At HALF what he paid for it
it was ridiculous but the 2 of them just kept going up and up outbidding each other.

The sale of this item took so long that the person taking my bids and I had a 6 - 8 minute
conversation about how crazy it was.

Believe me, the Auction was worth listening to.

A very good example of why you set a limit AND STOCK TO IT !!!


In answer to your question, yes you pay a small premium for DFH, Stanley etc etc guns
but not that much. (The one exception would be Pres Roosevelt's H&H Royal 500/465 !!!).


500 Nitro

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Rusty
.333 member


Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Mad Prices [Re: 500Nitro]
      #20489 - 05/11/04 12:33 PM

The only double rifle of history I want is the Jeffery 450/400 3 inch that is inscribed, "To Mark from your Uncle Bob".

Now, it is out of my range, but do you know that Mark Selby still guides 5 Star hunts in Tanzania? I mean, it would be worth the price for, just the time around the campfire with sundowners and tales of hunts gone by.

Think of all those great hunters who lived before us. Who amongst us would pass up a chance to share a campfire with the great hunters and writers if they could?

Just imagine a hunt with Ruark and Capstick, Harry Selby?
The whisky bill alone boogles the mind and senses!


--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Mad Prices [Re: Rusty]
      #20492 - 05/11/04 01:13 PM

I couldn't afford that sort of money but I believe "names" associated do increase the value of the rifle.

In the end what people are willing to pay for it, is the value it will receive on sale.

I like firearms with a history. I also collect weapons - swords, axes etc - and the Japanese believe the souls of the owners stay with the katana (two handed sword).

Sort of with double rifles.

Each double rifle should have a ledger of its life and happenings.

I wonder if that would also increase its value. Maybe not "it sat in a display case in my den with forty others and never ventured anywhere". Oops!

The belief in souls staying with a Katana is good reason never to sell one back to its country of origin in my opinion.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Mad Prices [Re: 500Nitro]
      #20496 - 05/11/04 03:37 PM

500Nitro

Here's the other half!!

As you rightly note this rifle sold at auction in the UK for 30,000 GBP sans case. The buyer already owned the case! ...a 70,000 GBP case it would seem! But it most likely was prudent purchase.........

Apparently Finch - Hatton may have "had his way" with Karen Von Blixen over this very case...and certains stains, long assumed to be from gun oil, have been DNA tested and found to match Finch-Hattons genes...presumably from some sort of body secretion??

The owners' interest was aroused when he noticed some hair caught in the brass corners.. brown, curly type....but not from a Curley Coated Retriever or any other animal.. Human in origin....and of from an Aryan racial type....but further tests are being done to establish whether they are Von Blixen's (Karen's that is!)

No doubt if this proves to be the case, the outfit's value will take a further hike!

But..and this is the risky bit.... if they turn out to be Bror's???....the price would presumably go South...and a whole lot of books will have to be re-written!!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mad Prices [Re: 470Rigby]
      #20498 - 05/11/04 03:51 PM



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Mad Prices [Re: 470Rigby]
      #20499 - 05/11/04 04:37 PM

What if they are Kamante's? (sp)

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Mad Prices [Re: mickey]
      #20502 - 05/11/04 06:13 PM

470Rigby

I'll have to have a word with the Auction house about the "leaving out of important information"
in the descriptions !!!

Knowing the "infamous ?" story of DFH and KVB, I had thought of that when I saw
the rifle.

Anyway, it is something I will never forget listening to for the rest of my life.

500 Nitro

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Mad Prices [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #20520 - 06/11/04 03:18 AM

Here's some larger versions of the same photos.








Phil

Thanks for finding those double rifle photos and info. I would like to create a new thread (for archive purposes) of one of the "Featured Double" kind (previously 'Double of the Day').

NitroX


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Mad Prices [Re: mickey]
      #20533 - 06/11/04 09:22 AM

Mick

In reply to:

What if they are Kamante's?



Given the proclivities of the British Upper Class, this is entirely possible. Even John Taylor was rumored to partake of this peculiar pleasure on his long sojurns into the bush..

Anything's possible...perhaps even a threesome??? Although one wonders how this might be orchestrated on a guncase.....presumably pressed into service when it was discovered that the picnic rug had been left behind??

I suppose we shall just have to wait on the outcome on the ongoing DNA tests to clear up this little byway of history....

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
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Re: Mad Prices [Re: 470Rigby]
      #20535 - 06/11/04 09:32 AM

I hope you keep us informed on the DNA results. Very interesting on goings.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Mad Prices [Re: mickey]
      #20536 - 06/11/04 09:36 AM

In reply to:

Charles Lancaster .450 NE (3 1/4) Back action non-ejector (formerly ejector) double barreled big game rifle



A new response for the ejectors or non ejectors question.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Matt_Graham
Sponsor


Reged: 26/02/04
Posts: 602
Loc: Australia
Re: Mad Prices [Re: mickey]
      #20539 - 06/11/04 11:45 AM

YUK - I dont care, they can have their evil case!
Bit like buying Lewinsky's dress!
I'll take the double though!

--------------------
www.huntaust.com.au

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Mad Prices [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #20541 - 06/11/04 12:44 PM

Hell it sure must be a strong case made out of wood and leather!

It must be so good they should market it and make a million advertising it as the "StiffyCase".



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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vigillinus
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 115
Re: Mad Prices [Re: NitroX]
      #20558 - 06/11/04 07:16 PM

I own bolt action rifles originally built for Townsend Whelen and Elmer Keith and extensively written about by them. Have turned down offers that in my opinion were grossly disproportionate to their actual intrinsic worth. Also owned an M70 that Jack O'Connor used and gave to John Kingsley-Heath, neither of them ever wrote it up, but I sold it for about double its value as a rifle. I recall that about forty years ago Weller & Dufty or Wallis & Wallis sold Winston Churchill's 1896 Mauser pistol that he had used at the battle of Omdurman and still owned through WWII, if that showed up for sale today I would predict a price of five or ten million dollars, perhaps even more. I don't recall the price all those years ago.

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Mad Prices [Re: NitroX]
      #20570 - 07/11/04 12:42 AM

It seems that the origins of this guncase and what should be done with it is being debated in other media!

Here is a letter published recently in a provincial newspaper in the UK, quote;

"Sir,

If,heaven forbid,these stains turn out to be not Finch Hatton,s DNA nor Bror,s,where then does that leave us,are they certain that the hair found caught in the corner is indeed Aryan in origin.Certainly not a Curly retriever,however,and this is drawing a very long bow,is not the hair of the Ethiopian brown and curly and do not many dark rumours abound,spoken of behind closed doors,of the terrible fascination of certain characteristics of the Ethiopian held by some white women.One would hope nay pray to the one true god that nothing of this nature should turn out to be the case,but one must always be prepared for the worst.
Should this terrible eventuality come to pass then how will the value of the case be affected? possibly enhanced,as a most undignified scramble takes place to among the media to be the first to put before a sensation hungry public the facts of this sorry case.
One could then ask almost anything one wanted for this guncase and in these days of checque-book journalism one would no doubt receive ones wishes.
The only honourable thing,however, would be to burn the evidence of this ghastly act and keep the honour of this most lovely of women, as she was portrayed by Meryl Streep,intact. The very thought of a large and horny Ethiopian rodgering the woman over this guncase and having his wicked way with her is more than than a civilised man can reasonably be expected to bear.
One can only hope that the pursuit of Mammon does not overcome this gentlemans,hopefully,innate sense of honour and that faced with the decision he takes the only right and proper path.
Yr.Obdt.Svt.
William R.Rutherholden Esq."

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pwm
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
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Re: Mad Prices [Re: 470Rigby]
      #20581 - 07/11/04 06:23 AM

do i understand it rigth that they sell a 70000 GBP gun case that wasn't cleaned only one time in the last 70 years.
This is an excellent idea, I don't like to clean the car. Will see what it's worth in 70 years.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3599
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Mad Prices [Re: pwm]
      #20584 - 07/11/04 02:31 PM

pwm:
Only if you can provide photographic and DNA evidence to identify those stains on the hood!!!




--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Mad Prices [Re: 470Rigby]
      #20585 - 07/11/04 02:59 PM


The permutations of whose DNA is found and the corresponding increase or decrease
in value of the gun case should be explored further.

After all, History could have to be re written.

Options
Denys Finch Hatton and Karen Blixen
Denys Finch Hatton and some Ethiopian woman
Denys Finch Hatton and some bloke (heaven forbid if this is true)
Karen Blixen and her gun bearer
Karen Blixen and some horny Ethiopian male
(as 470 Rigby said, the thought of some horny Ethiopian doubling Karen Blixen
over this guncase and having his wicked way with her is a bit mind bogling -
- Wouldn't the buckles get in the way ???)

Bets are being taken on the likely findings

I believe that the William R.Rutherholden Esq that wrote the letter as posted by
470Rigby is the Landed gentry from Scotland who emigrated to Australia many years
ago. I also believe he still owns copious amounts of land in the heathered regions of driven
grouse country fame.

I am sure a man of his standing and wealth would be able to afford such a piece of
history without decreasing his bank balance too much.

500 Nitro

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Mad Prices [Re: 500Nitro]
      #20586 - 07/11/04 03:50 PM

What about an Eithiopian woman and Karen Blixen?

These were the days of the Happy Valley set after all.

And if it was Finch-Hatton's gun case, how do you know it wasn't in regular use. I don't think Blixen was his only squeeze, but one of many.



***

Marrakai's neighbours have been looking over the fence again.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Mad Prices [Re: NitroX]
      #20590 - 07/11/04 05:17 PM


NitroX

Ethiopian woman and Karen Blixen - That's another good one.

What about Denys Finch Hatton, Karen Blixen AND an Ethiopian woman ???

"And if it was Finch-Hatton's gun case, how do you know it wasn't in regular use. I don't think Blixen was
his only squeeze, but one of many."

"The story of Denys Finch Hatton and his love affair with Karen Blixen (his only known romance)........."
He is only known to have had one romance.

Unless it is DFH / KB, everything else re writes history.

500 Nitro

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mad Prices [Re: 500Nitro]
      #20591 - 07/11/04 06:22 PM

In reply to:

"The story of Denys Finch Hatton and his love affair with Karen Blixen (his only known romance)........."
He is only known to have had one romance.




Beryl Markham ? Others ?

The movie "Out of Africa" alludes to it but 'sanitises' it, as Finch-Hatton's need to get away 'by myself'. I have seen several references t affairs in books from the time but need to remember where.

There are references to Karen Blixen having other affairs too.

***

Gossipping on a wet Sunday afternoon.

But took the Greener for a shoot this afternoon. Hay crop raiding Galahs (legal to shoot in SA as crop protection). Maybe 25 to 30 so far but giving up for the day.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Mad Prices [Re: NitroX]
      #20592 - 07/11/04 08:07 PM

Gentlemen,Gentlemen!

I see no point in such vacuous speculation, in so doing impugning the reputations of people who hitherto have been assumed to have lead blameless lives, until such time that the DNA evidence on the folicular matter is at hand.

Even so, there is no reason to believe that the two pieces of evidence might have been the result of a concurrent act!

While myself not normally given to onanistic pleasures , I have at times felt the urge when beholding one of Charles Lancasters's exquisite leg o' mutton locked hammerless high velocity double-barreled rifles. So it is is entirely feasible that Finch-Hatton might have succumbed to such an impulse.

I daresay, were it not for the fact that it is the norm to remove such evidence, a goodly number of such disclourations often found on the exteriors of guncases housing Best Quality English "weapons of the chase", which are usually attributed to careless use of Rangoon Oil or some such, might be found to have suffered the same abuse as the Finch-Hatton riflecase?

...The Rt. Hon. Sir Forceven T. Rigby

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