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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Elmer Keith's WR .470
      #203063 - 21/02/12 03:28 AM

http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...8&saletype=
Quote:

Sale A1062 Lot 1216

WESTLEY RICHARDS
A .470 NITRO EXPRESS SINGLE-TRIGGER BOXLOCK EJECTOR DOUBLE RIFLE, serial no. 01712,

26in. replacement nitro barrels, partially matted raised sight rib with some bold scroll engraving, open sights for 100 yards with gold-inlaid line, block-mounted bead fore-sight with flip-up moonsight and patent fold-over protector, sunken rib engraved 'WESTLEY RICHARDS 23 CONDUIT ST. LONDON.', tubes engraved '.470 NITRO EXPRESS. 75 / 500GRS.', Westley Richards patent treble-grip action with striker discs, Westley Richards patent toplever, bolted manual safety with gold-inlaid 'SAFE' and 'BOLTED' details, hinged floorplate, converted to non-selective single trigger from double trigger, bold acanthus scroll engraving, retaining very slight traces of original colour-hardening, 14 1/2in. well-figured pistolgrip stock with cheekpiece, engraved steel pistolgrip-cap (with trap), sling swivels and including 1/2in. extension and 1in. rubber recoil pad, weight 11lb. 2oz., in its brass-cornered canvas and leather case with sighting targets

Provenance: This rifle is the former property of Elmer Keith and is accompanied by letters from him to the vendor.

Our thanks to Cameron Hopkins, Editorial Director, Combat Tactics; Contributor, NRA Publications; Contributing Editor, Sports Afield; Contributor, Small Arms Review; who has kindly provided the following on Elmer Keith:

'An outspoken advocate of big-bore calibers [sic] and cartridges, the late Elmer Keith (1899-1984) is best known for his ballistic experiments with the .44 Special that led directly to Remington Arms Company's introduction of the .44 Magnum revolver cartridge in 1956. A prolific writer on hunting, shooting and "wildcat" cartridge development, Keith was a contemporary of Roy Weatherby and a Western big game hunting guide. Despite the tempo of the times, Keith stubbornly championed big-bore calibers in spite of Weatherby's advocacy of small-bore, high-velocity magnum rifle cartridges for big game hunting. Along with Jack O'Connor, the two were featured frequently in lively debates on the merits of large-bore vs. high-velocity cartridges in American shooting publications.

'Keith owned several double rifles, but this Lot was one of his favorites [sic]. He took this Lot, a single-trigger .476 Westley Richards, on his first safari to Tanganyika in the mid-1960s to shoot Cape buffalo, rhino and elephant, an experience that left a lasting impression on the inventor of the Keith-style bullet and such cartridges as the .333 OKH:

' "A rhino took me in Africa at just 18 paces and I could not get a shot at his shoulder to break it and aimed at his chest for a heart shot when he turned and faced me, but just as I started the trigger squeeze, he ducked his head and charged. Heavy tree boles covered both shoulders, so I hit him in the end of the nose right under the front horn at 10 paces. The 520 grain cupro nickel solid from my Westley Richards shattered all the upper jaw teeth on the right side and he went down on his chin with front feet folded back, but continued to kick toward me. I was well caught in wait-a-bit thorn, so I waited for him to regain his feet for my second shot. When he came up on all fours I shot him in the right shoulder but just as I fired he fell on his nose again with his hind quarters still erect from the effects of the first slug. My second slug went in over the shoulder in the ribs and penetrated through to the right hind quarter. The bull continued to kick himself toward me at a few feet range as I was reloading the big double, so I yelled at John Lawrence, my white hunter, to take him on. John did so instantly, giving him a slug from his .416 just back of the bone in the right shoulder."
Elmer Keith, Guns & Ammo, August 1982

'Keith was an unabashed lover of English-made double rifles: "In England and on much of the continent of Europe, double barreled [sic] rifles are considered as all-around rifles by a great many sportsmen. To my notion, they are primarily brush and timber rifles, although when chambered for a suitable long range cartridge they may be used for about all hunting. It is in the brush and timber, under the stress of quick snap shooting at running big game that they really come into their own. For such use, I prefer them to any other type of rifle. They are short for the length of the barrels, balance perfectly, and for those two shots are just as fast as the automatic. I prefer the two quick shots from the double rifle to a whole magazine full from the repeater for such hunting. Such double rifles have the fastest of all safeties, just like a fine double shotgun, and placed exactly where it is the handiest- on the top of the grip. Such rifles should always be ejectors, to facilitate reloading as quickly as possible. I firmly believe the double barrel rifle to be the most reliable of all types from the standpoint of safety to the hunter, when facing dangerous or wounded game. Its smooth breech offers nothing to catch on limbs or brush in timber hunting and it carries in one hand at the balance perfectly. Almost any repeating rifle is liable to jam, or fail to throw another cartridge in the chamber during stress of excitement, through the hunter failing to bring the bolt back far enough to the rear to catch the head of the next shell, whether bolt or lever action. To my notion, Charles Cottar and the English are right, and I was all wet in recommending the aperture or peep sight over any other sight for very close snap shooting. We live and learn and what may seem the best to us today may not seem the best a couple or three years hence. All men make mistakes but darn few of them will admit it."
Elmer Keith, Big Game Rifles & Cartridges, 1936

'Elmer Keith remains the most out-spoken and influential of any American shooting writer. He was presented the Outstanding American Handgunner Award along with numerous other accolades during his colorful lifetime. His love of big-bore calibers was exceeded only by his zest for adventure. This Lot represents the quintessence of Keith's legacy, a large-bore double rifle that he cherished and took afield on one of only two African safaris the short man in the big Stetson hat ever enjoyed.'

Estimate £25,000-30,000




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bwanabobftw
.375 member


Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Texas
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #203068 - 21/02/12 04:18 AM

I'm not sure where the typo happened , but this gun is a .476 WR , not a .470 . Look at the bullet wt Mr. Keith quotes " The 520 grain Cupro Nickel ..." I don't think anyone loaded a 520 bullet for the .470 , (but that was the standard wt. for the .476 WR )?
Robert
(would love to own this gun !!!!!!)


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bwanabobftw
.375 member


Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Texas
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #203069 - 21/02/12 04:22 AM

I guess I should read the ad first . I stand corrected as I just read it has replacement BBLs. I guess it was rechambered for the more popular .470 with the new bbls. I do believe the original cal. was .476 ? Wonder where those bbls. are ?
Robert


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27022
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #203096 - 21/02/12 10:02 AM

Yes - Elmer's double Westley Richards was a .476.

I do not remember him having or mentioning a .470. I guess those are the noted "replacement nitro barrels".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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bwanabobftw
.375 member


Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Texas
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: DarylS]
      #203099 - 21/02/12 10:22 AM

I thought so !!!! I remember from some of his writings he had several doubles .577 , .500 , 375 21/2", and .303 etc. But , I don't remember a .470 ?
Robert


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375Brno
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Reged: 18/10/05
Posts: 354
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #203133 - 21/02/12 05:19 PM

Tough question I know given that the description does not talk too much about condition and you would want to inspect it however what do people think it would be worth WITHOUT the Elmer Keith background.
Rick


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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: 375Brno]
      #203136 - 21/02/12 06:17 PM

I´ll be a little surprised if an american doesn´t buy that, old Elmer was very popular (except with Roy Weatherby and on slighly different issues Jack O´Connor !) best, Mike

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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1213
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #203143 - 21/02/12 07:28 PM

I cannot see where it is mentioned it had been rebarreled on Holts site?

I have always kicked myself I didn't bid on Selous' Holland single, perhaps I could make amends with this one?

I would have thought 14 1/2" LOP would have been too long for Elmer?

Cheers,

Chris


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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
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Loc: Nil
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: Rockdoc]
      #203163 - 21/02/12 10:32 PM

Gee I don't want to start a fight , but I dont think you can compare the amazing Frederick with Elmer !

Not saying one of Elmer's gun's would not be cool to have how ever .


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Matt_Graham
Sponsor


Reged: 26/02/04
Posts: 602
Loc: Australia
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: Sarg]
      #203169 - 21/02/12 10:51 PM

An American might see it differently Sarg. Keith was much more widely known there than fcs.

--------------------
www.huntaust.com.au


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27022
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #203183 - 22/02/12 01:58 AM

Not just the US. He was very well though of up here too.

I spoke with Elmer on a number of occasions, and we corresponded for a few years as well.

Elmer, bless his soul, was instrumental in a couple of us young Mounties buying M29's as our 'duty guns', to replace our M10's. As we both had old M1917 Colt duty holsters, the .44's fit perfectly.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1213
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: DarylS]
      #203188 - 22/02/12 02:40 AM

I have asked Holts situation re rebarrel and caliber. Heck even their information on Keith below rifle description is contradictory.Reply was they have forwarded my request to the relevant specialist but may not hear until a fortnight before the auction.

Anyone here going to be inspecting the guns before the auction? That H&H 500/465 with the peep sight looks nice, a little careworn however.

I expect that a droplock WR double rifle with Keith provenance would fetch more than the price guide?

Cheers, Chris


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bwanabobftw
.375 member


Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Texas
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: Rockdoc]
      #203191 - 22/02/12 03:47 AM

I would be curious what Holt's say about the gun . Maybe he had a WR .470 in addition to his WR .476. I "zoomed in" on one of those targets thinking it would say .476 , however it appears it says .470 ????? The picture with the buffalo is his .500 Bosswell (I think). And the lion picture is his .476 ( this gun maybe ?). Great to speculate !!
Robert

Daryl I'm very envious of you , Mr. Keith was one of my boyhood heros . Would have loved to visited with him.


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #203196 - 22/02/12 04:06 AM

Quote:

by JabaliHunter

Westley Richards patent treble-grip action with striker discs, Westley Richards patent toplever, bolted manual safety with gold-inlaid 'SAFE' and 'BOLTED' details, hinged floorplate, converted to non-selective single trigger from double trigger,





Though I agree with most of Keith's opinions, the conversion to a single trigger and especially a NON-SELECTIVE single trigger I definately do not agree with! I would love to own that rifle, if I did I would have the rifle converted back to double triggers!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #203207 - 22/02/12 06:15 AM

I am trying to track down some letters from Keith to my great uncle regarding a Westley Richards double that he bought from him. IIRC, he really liked the gun but I don't recall what it was chambered in. I think it was $600 though!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: Huvius]
      #203219 - 22/02/12 07:50 AM

Dugaboy, I don´t think he had it converted, the .476 he owned and I presume this is the gun, was a single trigger when he got it, also why NON SELECTIVE, the worst were selectives for going wrong. Daryl, you actually spoke to the great man !!! I am in awe, when I was 12-14 years old, I spent all my time reading his articles in Guns and Ammo

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #203224 - 22/02/12 09:08 AM

I would love to see the provenance from Kieth. I had lunch with him at his home in Salmon the day after he received a case of books, Safari. We talked Doubles in particular as he was proud of the book (got a signed and dedicated copy as a gift from him) Do not remember any mention of a 470 as I had a Gibbs 470 with me and we took it out of town to give it a go. I think I would remember his mentioning having a 470.

Also, not a WR historian but when did they close the Conduit Street shop? Just wondering if this is a re barrel with a bit of 'extra' lettering on it? It happens in Belgium all the time.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: mickey]
      #203232 - 22/02/12 11:38 AM

I found two letters from Elmer to My great Uncle Floyd.
These were sent in 1943 and as such are a great insight into some of what Elmer was up to during the war.
I am still looking for any other letters regarding the Westley, which was a 476 BTW. Of course no way of knowing if this is the very same gun, but there is a good chance of it and from his letters, he was pretty hot to get his hands on it!






--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by CptCurl (29/02/12 11:17 PM)


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
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Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #203237 - 22/02/12 12:17 PM

Quote:

Dugaboy, I don´t think he had it converted, the .476 he owned and I presume this is the gun, was a single trigger when he got it, also why NON SELECTIVE, the worst were selectives for going wrong. Daryl, you actually spoke to the great man !!! I am in awe, when I was 12-14 years old, I spent all my time reading his articles in Guns and Ammo




Mike I don’t think the quote was that “HE” converted only that it “WAS” converted from double trigger to single non-selective!

I don’t like any single trigger on a double rifle that will be used for hunting dangerous game! The “WHY” of my response is that if you risk your life on a single trigger on a double rifle, and it is non-selective, and you pull the first trigger, and the rifle doesn’t fire, you really do not know WHY that barrel didn’t go off! It could be a dud, or it could be a tumbler spring, or it could be a stuck striker, or a broken striker. The other barrel fires then you know, at least, you have a working single shot with that barrel. You break a non-selective triggered double to reload, and with ejectors both cartridges will eject, so you still don’t know why the right barrel didn’t fire. (I say right barrel, because tha non-selective trigger will always fire the right barrel first. You re-load both barrels and the right barrel fails to fire again! OUCH!

If the single trigger is selective and the above thing happens the proper thing to do would be to select the other barrel to fire first, and so that you will at least be firing a barrel you know fired before, and when you pull the trigger again and that barrel fails again, when you break the rifle it will automatically re-set the left barrel to fire first, and will do so each time you open to re-load that left barrel. It the first miss fire was simply a dud then you have lost nothing because the rifle will swtill fire both barrels on each re-load only in a reverse order. Though this is my opinion, and we know what that is worth for buying a cup of coffee, but that opinion is shared my one JOHN TAYLOR, on pages 324 and 325 of his book AFRICAN RIFLES and CRTRIDGES
.............................................

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
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Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: DarylS]
      #203238 - 22/02/12 12:40 PM

Quote:

Not just the US. He was very well though of up here too.

I spoke with Elmer on a number of occasions, and we corresponded for a few years as well.

Elmer, bless his soul, was instrumental in a couple of us young Mounties buying M29's as our 'duty guns', to replace our M10's. As we both had old M1917 Colt duty holsters, the .44's fit perfectly.


Sorry I should have said 'a North American' - not just an American!!

--------------------
www.huntaust.com.au


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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
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Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #203250 - 22/02/12 02:44 PM

Yes Elmer is famous & rightly so , he did make him self that way !

The other Frederick is amazing also & he is North American - Frederick Russell Burnham , almost as good as Selous !

Huvius , those are some very neat letters to have , more so with a famliy tie !


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georgegibbs505
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Reged: 19/01/07
Posts: 75
Loc: WV
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: Sarg]
      #203261 - 22/02/12 04:11 PM

I know Mr.Mallick in the letter on Holts description, I can call him and find out what the story is.

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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1213
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: georgegibbs505]
      #203267 - 22/02/12 05:05 PM

Quote:

I know Mr.Mallick in the letter on Holts description, I can call him and find out what the story is.



I would be very interested to hear what he has to say. Intriguing.

Huvius those letters are an amazing piece of history!

Cheers, Chris


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georgegibbs505
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Posts: 75
Loc: WV
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: Rockdoc]
      #203407 - 23/02/12 04:39 PM

I talked to Mr.Mallick,Elmer owned this rifle for a long time and it was also pictured in his book Safari, Mr. Mallick was a very good friend of Mr.Keiths,I will have more info in a day or so.

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Bader
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Reged: 25/02/12
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Loc: Germany
Re: Elmer Keith's WR .470 [Re: georgegibbs505]
      #205955 - 25/03/12 07:07 PM

I talked to Mr.Mallick,Elmer owned this rifle for a long time and it was also pictured in his book Safari, Mr. Mallick was a very good friend of Mr.Keiths,I will have more info in a day or so.
THIS WILL BE GREAT!!!
INFO... :-)))


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