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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
My 465 Holland has been sold
      #20079 - 28/10/04 01:36 AM

I don't think I was ever happier to get rid of a rifle as I was the Holland! It was a beautiful rifle in the original case but a royal pain in the ass to deal with. I tried every load imaginable to make it shoot without any luck at all. If you fired the left barrel first, you got a big surprise - - - It would fire both barrels at once! I must honestly say that it " kicked like an indignant camel".

I am now faced with finding a replacement. I really like Butch Searcy's rifles but am a little hesitant as anything but English double rifles are difficult to sell. I had a Chapius double in 375 that shot perfectly. I had taken this rifle in trade and had a price of $ 5,000 US on the piece. I kept this gun for 18 months and was convinced that I would be buried with it! A fellow came up to my table at a gun show and offered me 3500.00 for it. I accepted his offer and wanted to give him a kiss for buying it!! Not really but you know what I mean.
When times get tough and I need to get some fast, I can always rely on selling an English gun fairly quickly. It also seems that the supply of decent English stuff is really drying up. I would be interested in all of your opinions! Many thanks.

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Martin
.224 member


Reged: 15/09/04
Posts: 24
Loc: British
Re: My 465 Holland has been sold [Re: nitro476]
      #20081 - 28/10/04 04:58 AM

Hi Nitro,

You may wish to take a look at www.bozardandco.com It's a bit late now, but Philip may well have been able to solve your problem.

Bozard and Co were originally London gunmakers who went broke sometime in the mid nineteenth century. The "new" Bozard and Co is owned and run by Philip Turner who spent 14 years as a barrel maker for H & H and James Purdey. Everthing he makes is genuinely of the same standard but at half the price. Owing to the declining market, the London makers out source work and he uses some of the same craftsmen, who presumably he knows from his days in the London trade. The really good news is that he will build a double rifle on a box lock action if you wish. Hollands, Purdey, and Churchill will no longer do this. It will have exactly the same London "best" gun feel as an H & H side lock, and indeed the same craftsmanship and wood, at a fraction of the price: circa 18,000 pounds stirling. Delivery is around two years.

Interestingly there is an argument that a box lock requires less wood to be removed than a side lock and wood is more vunerable than steel...etc. Any experienced views? With regard to recoil. Although for some extraordinary reason a .500 Royal feels much "nicer" than a 500/465 of similar weight, perhaps it is the heavier bullet, some doubles were just built too light and perhaps this could have been the problem.

One reason London best guns are "drying up" is that a new best side lock double is now so expensive that its investment value is doubtful. So fewer people are ordering them, except of course the very wealthy. Because of the new price the used doubles are becoming more desirable and scarce.

But gentlemen nothing, absolutely nothing, feels like a best London double.

Martin

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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: My 465 Holland has been sold [Re: Martin]
      #20083 - 28/10/04 05:51 AM

Thank you for your information on the double. I hope this fellow will do OK but to pay 36,000 Us for any boxlock is out of the question! Couple that with a rifle built by an unknown maker and you will never recover what you spent for the rifle! I think the prices for English gun work are over the top and the makers like Westley and the lot are cleaning up! Bear in mind that the English have not made any barrels for at least 70 years. The have always purchased the barrels from Europe and Spain. The limeys have always had a knack for breaking it off in people and have gotten more greedy in the last 10 years.
I had the Holland gone over by a fellow from England with a superb reputation. 1,000.00 later the gun shot a little better but not enough to make it a keeper. He cured the doubling problem for 450.00.
All in all you could not run fast enough to give me another Holland and I don't run that fast!
My boxlocks were superior in every way the the H&H and cost a hell of a lot less.
Please keep in touch and I will do the same!

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: My 465 Holland has been sold [Re: nitro476]
      #20104 - 28/10/04 02:47 PM

nitro476
I do not know where you live, but if possible visit www.champlinarms.com in person and handle a few doubles, if they do not have one that suits you just tell George Caswell what you are looking for and he will contact you if he finds one that might suit you.

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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: My 465 Holland has been sold [Re: NE450No2]
      #20112 - 28/10/04 09:18 PM

Thank you. I am in South America but I know George from the days when I used to do gun shows in Vegas. He has a super nice 470 Manton that I would buy in a minute if it did not have those awful claw mount bases. I can not imagine anyone scoping a "stopping" rifle. I will keep looking and hopefully something will turn up!

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Martin
.224 member


Reged: 15/09/04
Posts: 24
Loc: British
Re: My 465 Holland has been sold [Re: nitro476]
      #20233 - 30/10/04 09:02 PM

Hi Nitro,

Certainly since I have been dealing with H & H they have always made their own barrels for double rifles from BRITISH forgings. The tubes are forged in the north of England and built in their own premises by their own craftsmen, as are their side lock actions. James Purdey has always preferred British tubes, but when these have not been available they certainly do use continental ones. But the integrity and quality of the finished chopper lump barrels depends on the hours and skill put into the barrel making, rather than the source of the forgings.

Unless you purchase a used best double at an auction such as Christies, you will never recover your cost. Even here, a best H & H Royal in the right condition, with buyers’ premium, will still run well over $50,000. That is what the market will bear: so that is what they’re worth. Best London box locks are a bargain by comparison.

But many people are not prepared to pay the going price for a perfect gun which is why so many complain they’ve ended up with a “dog”. Churchill built their last box lock rifle recently and it was $50,000. Apart from the locks themselves, the difference in the labour hours of a box / side lock is minimal, so presumabley this is why they will not make more. Bozard will produce a rifle with even better wood and British tubes for $30,000, which is the reason they are inundated and there is over two years waiting time. A really good best London box lock double, in the “right” condition, will still make gross $20,000+ at auction, if you can find one. Just look through the old Chrities catalogues. People who pay less often do so at their peril, or suffer a cosmetically inferior gun.

I was surprised on you view of H & H doubles. If you were to try shooting a late H & H Royal I am sure you would love it. In absolute terms of course best London guns are overpriced. But then so are Patek Phillip watches and Aston Martins. But what the money buys is not just something to tell the time or get from A to B. It is the satisfaction of owning something beautifully crafted in the time honoured tradition with a special charisma, balance, and feel. A CZ .458 or a mass produced .470 double with mono blocks will kill anything on this planet stone dead – but where’s the magic?

But then again, perhaps I'm just a sentimental old Brit.

Martin

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: My 465 Holland has been sold [Re: Martin]
      #20239 - 31/10/04 12:02 AM

Martin,

How elitist of you. The “mass produced” doubles coming out of Germany and America were specifically designed to let a man of modest means own, shoot and hunt with a double rifle without the hassle of a cantankerous old firearm so complex one would surly think it was meant to torment the soul of man. I've dreamed of owning a DR since I was a lad reading PHC. Now that I'm 39 and living a real life (mortgage, child, credit cards) even the “resonable” $7500 I paid for my new (with warranty) Merkel was outrageous by most standards. But, by-God I have a real double rifle! And to me it is magic.

Blair

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Martin
.224 member


Reged: 15/09/04
Posts: 24
Loc: British
Re: My 465 Holland has been sold [Re: bonanza]
      #20248 - 31/10/04 01:42 AM

Hi Blair,

It was never intended to be elitest. But there have been so many negative posts lately on best British double rifles by people who seemingly have never owned a good one, that I felt I had to make a point about relative value, what you really need to pay to get a good one, and their true merit.

Perhaps ironically, your post helps make my point: you cannot buy a good London double for this sort of price. I know the Merkels well, have always liked them, and would buy such a rifle everytime in preference to an old English double in that price range. I too was where you are at your age, but doubtless when you get to mine, a few insurance policies will have matured, the house will be paid for, and if the kids are fine, I suspect you may well be looking for a nice used English gun too.

As for magic: it is an individual thing, and we all have our own interpretation of it. But magic is as magic does.

Enjoy your new double.

Martin

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: My 465 Holland has been sold [Re: nitro476]
      #20259 - 31/10/04 08:05 AM

nirto476
I have handled that Manton and it is a nice rifle. You do not notice the claw mounts when sighting the rifle.
I think a 470 with a scope would be great for lion [500gr bullets], leopard and black bear[with 350 grain Hawk bullets] over bait.

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: My 465 Holland has been sold [Re: Martin]
      #20266 - 31/10/04 11:54 AM

Martin,

Thanks for the kind words. I would love to own fine British DR, and realize you get what you pay for. Therefor, when that day comes I now I must lay down an eye watering wad of cash. Seems the shotgun guys already have figured it out and it's us rifle shooters who are in denile. Ex CFO of pepsi shoots skeet at my range and comes out regularly with $80 - $160 thousand dollars worth of purdys. The local vintagers club has valued there total collect at > $1 million, go figure!

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: My 465 Holland has been sold [Re: Martin]
      #20352 - 02/11/04 06:35 AM

It is a known fact that all British firms have purchased barrels from Europe and or Pedro Arrizabalaga in Spain.

You have to also realize that H&H does more advertising than any other maker. Do to the fact that I was in the advertising business, I know that the costs are very high and someone has to pay for these costs. I am also certain that the people who do the actual work are not getting wealthy. The markup on these items are over the top and the companies are making a killing.

I have always made a profit on selling used English shotguns and or rifles. Buying at an auction is the last place to buy anything. I have watched as idiots paid a greater price for a used item than it costs new! They seem to get auction fever and ultimately pay too much.

Also, I think H&H guns are over rated. I have had Westleys and Rigbys that were far more accurate and much mre pleasant to shoot. As far as an Aston Martin goes, it like all British autos are at the bottom of the list. I drive a Porsche and have owned other German cars and can only say that " The Germans build one hell of a car"!

I do agree with you regarding the " warmth " of the old British rifles that cannot be duplicated by a new rifle in my opinion. They even smell different.

I hate to do this too you but I can't resist!

Do you know why the English drink warm beer?

Answer: Because Lucas makes refrigeration as well as auto electronics!


Cheers,

David

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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: My 465 Holland has been sold [Re: NE450No2]
      #20615 - 08/11/04 05:33 AM

I like the Manton but the expense of removing those hideous claw mounts would be cost prohibitive and one can always tell that they were there.

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