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Jager
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Loc: New South Wales Australia
which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ?
      #200409 - 23/01/12 11:05 PM

Hello everyone just wondering if anybody could help me with some information about choosing a shotgun action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ,maybe what l am really after is a sort of list with brands of shotguns that people have used successfully for this conversion .

any help would be great .

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DarylS
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: Jager]
      #200419 - 24/01/12 03:58 AM

BRNO's are apparently good actions for conversions.

What pressure levels you want to load to, are also important in this discussion as they may open or close opportunities for certain actions to be used.

Factory loads usually run under 22,000psi/cup.

Hodgdon and Lee say that even trapdoor springfields can be loaded to 28,000psi/cup.

At 28,000psi, with selected powders, you can achieve over 2,100fps with 300gr., over 1,900fps with 350gr. and over 1,800fps with 400gr. bullets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DBLGN
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: DarylS]
      #200424 - 24/01/12 05:11 AM

"what l am really after is a sort of list with brands of shotguns"

I have used a lot of German guns for conversion, many do not have a name on them, other than where they were made (i.e. Suhl). As Daryl S. mentioned the BRNO actions are very strong and would warrant even a more "updated" load than what he mentioned. That does not mean that you can try and load them to .458 Win. Mag. pressures! But you can move up to the 30K-35K PSI range. Other German actions that I have used (for .450-3 1/4" NE, 450 #2 NE, & .470 NE's) are Simson, Simpson, and Merkel - most in 12 bore, but my first .450 was 16 bore Simson, and it is still shooting fine (though it is just a touch light for the cartridge). I have used two Huskvarna action for 45-70, one was a model 51 hammer gun with back action side locks in 12 bore, and the other was a model 52, 16 bore with front action side locks. This is by no means an exhaustive list, there are a lot of suitable donors out there.

If you want to stick to the lower pressure "trapdoor" loads, there is a almost a limitless number of suitable donors.

Hope this helps.

Ellis

--------------------
DBLGN

Edited by DBLGN (24/01/12 05:15 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: DBLGN]
      #200428 - 24/01/12 06:28 AM


WW Greener boxlocks will do it - they have been used for 577 conversions so a 45/70 won't hurt it.

They have a nice long water table.

I think the model is the Empire model.

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AkMike
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #200429 - 24/01/12 06:48 AM

I have a JP Sauer 12 ga that was converted to 450 NE.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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DarylS
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: AkMike]
      #200450 - 24/01/12 10:29 AM

Tradeexcanada.com has a LOT of used double shotguns for sale. They list names I've never heard of. I don't know if Tony can sell to the States yet or what their policy is. Just perusing the list of used shotguns for sale will bring up a lot of names Suhl & BRNO being only two. Tradeex has pages and pages of doubles and overunders for sale.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Jager
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: DarylS]
      #200471 - 24/01/12 03:06 PM

Wow thank`s a lot guys for the info keep it coming.I am looking at just running factory loads l mean l will hand load my own rounds here in Australia l use 55gn ADI 2207 powder with Remington 300gn hollow point not sure how quick they are coming out but they are a nice mild load l use them in my Marlin 1895 GBL guide gun.l have always been after a nice double and if l can make my own well awesome l have a great workshop and heaps of goodies , CNC mill etc.
But l am a very cautious person and will do as much research as possible before making any start on such a project.Today l have just received W.Ellis Browns book and l am already reading it so at the moment l will keep my eye out for a good donor shotgun.

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Jager
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: Jager]
      #200475 - 24/01/12 03:43 PM

When looking for a good donor gun l keep coming across ads that have various information in them like ,1 1/8oz proof "what does this mean". and are Damascus finished barrels "OK" for use in a double rifle l will be only using the mono block and cutting off the barrels ...AND is a box lock better to use than a side-lock. ?? this is going to be a great project when l find the right gun to use plenty of learning to be done but that`s what life is about isn`t it .?

This is one of the ads

(Holloway & Company Side lock double barrel shotgun in 12g. England. 30 inch full and full choked Damascus finish barrels. 1 1/8oz proof. Double trigger. Extractor. Original butt plate).

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500Nitro
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: Jager]
      #200479 - 24/01/12 03:55 PM


1 1/8oz proof will equate to like, 2 1/2 in shells.

1 1/4oz proof will equate to like, 2 3/4 in shells.


Boxlock, sidelock, shouldn't matter, but I would go boxlock
as it is not a Holland and you aren't trying to build one.


Damascus, I'd try for steel but also look at how the barrels were made more than anything - chopper lump etc etc

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AkMike
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #200486 - 24/01/12 05:57 PM

You'd have a hard time getting Damascus to blend in with steel finish. IMO it'd look bad and I have doubts to the strength of a mono made out of damascus.
I shoot 2- 500 BPE's that are Damascus and that part doesn't worry me after they were xrayed. But to shoot any full nitro pressured round would be scarey for me. Even a hot 45-70!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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DarylS
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: Jager]
      #200532 - 25/01/12 05:32 AM

Quote:

Wow thank`s a lot guys for the info keep it coming.I am looking at just running factory loads l mean l will hand load my own rounds here in Australia l use 55gn ADI 2207 powder with Remington 300gn hollow point not sure how quick they are coming out but they are a nice mild load l use them in my Marlin 1895 GBL guide gun.l have always been after a nice double and if l can make my own well awesome l have a great workshop and heaps of goodies , CNC mill etc.
But l am a very cautious person and will do as much research as possible before making any start on such a project.Today l have just received W.Ellis Browns book and l am already reading it so at the moment l will keep my eye out for a good donor shotgun.



My chart says AA2207 is H4198. I would assume you are getting around 2,000fps from the Guide Gun's 18 1/2" bl. 55.0gr. is actually Hodgdon's starting load for the .45/70 lever action rifle data and shows 2,200fps for a 24" barrel, at 27,600cup - which should be a safe load for the weaker actions, altough near the top. 2,200fps with a 300gr. is not a load to sneeze at. It's actually factory for weight and speed for a .405 Winchester.

My brother used just such a load (2,260fps actual, seems to me) with a 300gr. Hornady bullet on a 2 year old bull moose one year - the bullet actually exited the far side leaving a 1 diameter round hole. The lungs were blown up. His rifle was an iron sighted M1874 Sharps in .45 3 1/4".

I suspect if using a 300gr. Nosler, it would work on just about anything, but I usually tend to use heavier bullets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Birdhunter50
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: Jager]
      #200571 - 25/01/12 03:12 PM

Jager,
The actions that I have used to convert to 45/70's are 4 Beretta model 409's with crossbolts, 2 Aya's ,2 Laurona's, an FN sidelock, and one Ruger 20 gauge Red Lable. All the others were 12 gauge frames except the FN and it was a 16 gauge. I would not bother with any that were damascus, they are too hard to match up the barrels to and tend to be weaker anyway. Not because they are damascus, but because they are usually older guns with weaker actions. I especially would stay away from any of the older hammer guns unless they have threaded in bushings behind the firing pins. Too many were made with screws that come in from the side and hold the pins by engaging a notch in the floating firing pin. These can get badly worn over the years and can blow out even with shotgun shell pressures.
I had a friend who tried to shoot a modern 410 shell in a short chambered hammer gun one time. It broke the tumbler in the lock but luckily the hammer remained on the tumbler. The floating firing pin cut a big gouge across the bridge of his nose leaving him with a nice ugly scar for the rest of his life. If the hammer had come off, it might well have killed him. I saw that gun after the accident and the hammer would rotate 360 degrees in either direction while still attached to the lockplate.

There are many good German guns for sale that don't cost an arm and a leg. Merkels, Sauers,and Simsons are all made in Suhl and even though they are"middle aged" guns, they have good steel in them. Look for specimens with Greener type crossbolts on them, (the round type). The square ones tend to crack at the corners. Some will have sideclips, and many have a cheekpiece on them, which I like because I think they make the conversion look more like a rifle. I also try and find one that has good sound wood on it so that it does not have to be re-stocked. Factory sling swivels are also nice to have as far as I'm concerned. Bushed firing pins and/or a vented breechface are also positives.

16 gauges would be best for a 45/70 but they are getting hard to find. 12 gauges can work out just fine as long as you thin out the barrels quickly so as to get their weight down up front.
Bob H.

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Jager
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #200693 - 26/01/12 07:27 PM

Cheers guys thank`s for the info

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gundog
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: Jager]
      #200742 - 27/01/12 10:04 AM

Are these conversions limited to certain calibres or are they open to all and sundry? What cals would they be limited to if this is the case?

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AkMike
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: gundog]
      #200784 - 27/01/12 04:34 PM

I've got one in a 450 NE. Based on a JP Sauer 12 Ga. I'm not a `smith but I think a 470-500 NE is doable.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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500Nitro
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: AkMike]
      #200787 - 27/01/12 04:55 PM

Quote:

I've got one in a 450 NE. Based on a JP Sauer 12 Ga. I'm not a `smith but I think a 470-500 NE is doable.




Would want to be well done if so IMHO.

I'd buy a cheap proper double in those calibres.

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AkMike
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #200788 - 27/01/12 06:02 PM

Actually this particular rifle is well done IMO and it shoots as good or possibly a skoosh better than my Searcy.It does have more weight up front that I'd prefer but not by much.
Ellis or Bob can add much more real knowledge to this than I though.
Let's wait and see.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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DBLGN
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: AkMike]
      #201642 - 04/02/12 11:05 AM

"Are these conversions limited to certain calibres or are they open to all and sundry? What cals would they be limited to if this is the case?"

Pressure is the biggest consideration when building double rifles, especially on shotgun actions. The size or power of the cartridge is not the real issue, pressure is. I just don't like anything that is over 40K-45K PSI - my personal restriction. Vic Venters in his great book "Gun Craft" discusses fitting "to the circle". This is the most concise discussion that I have ever read on fitting barrels to the action, and this fitting is crucial with anything in the higher pressure ranges (40K-45K PSI). Frequently, shotgun barrels are not fitted tightly enough to the circle to allow the higher pressure stuff, but they work just fine for the old British, low pressure, nitro express rounds. Aside from physically fitting on the action, bigger is not a problem, but pressure is. I just finished a .470 on 12B frame - was great. I have not built a .500NE, but feel it is the biggest I would do on a 12B frame, mostly because the barrels are going to be lighter because of the bigger hole and therefore, it will be harder to get the weight up where it should be for a .500NE

The only issue with anything bigger than a .500NE (and I am not talking 505 Gibbs or .500 Jeffery - those are bolt gun cartridges and should stay there) is the action size. Anything over a .500 NE and you really need suitable 10 gauge action.

Ellis

--------------------
DBLGN

Edited by DBLGN (04/02/12 11:06 AM)

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greenshoots
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: DBLGN]
      #201683 - 05/02/12 01:25 AM

buy a baikal in 45/70 and upgeade it might work out cheaper

greenshoots

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Birdhunter50
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: DBLGN]
      #201703 - 05/02/12 05:46 AM

Ellis,
I agree with you completely on the "Gun Craft " book. He explains in chapter two on "Jointing & The Circle" how the English gunmakers manage to get their guns so closely fitted, and how jointing on the circle manages to take much of the strain off the hingepin. That is knowledge that you just won't find anywhere else. I am glad to see that you have decided to take part in our discussions on building double rifles.

I want you to know that there are lots of people out here, like myself for instance, who would never have started a double conversion without your book to lead us onward and show us the way to get started. Thanks to you, people can now have access to double rifles that they never could have afforded to own any other way. Some may grouch about building cheap doubles that will blow up and hurt someone, but that's all hogwash. If they follow your methods of proofing before shooting it from the shoulder, there is not much chance of that happening. Thanks for sharing your ideas and expertice with us and welcome to Nitro Express forums. Bob

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doubleriflejack
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #201706 - 05/02/12 06:51 AM

I second everything that Birdhunter50 had to say about Ellis, my teacher on the conversion process, prior to his writing his book on same subject. Prior to Ellis offering that Tech. College class, I had begun to do initial conversion work and experimentation, but with the class, I learned so much, and it saved me a lot of time I would have wasted getting to the point Ellis already was. Thank you so much, Ellis.

What Ellis had to say above, about converting to .500 using suitable 12 ga. frame, I fully agree with, of course. What he says, is clearly demonstrated too, in the Sabatti .500 NE. Though the action is 12 ga. size, though robust and extremely strong for such use, in the Sabatti, the end product is a double rifle that is simply too light in weight for caliber, with barrels having too abrupt taper, making them too light in weight. Shotgun frames are even lighter in weight than the Sabatti frame. Having done a few conversions in .500 N.E., I now consider any 12 gauge frame size to be borderline at best, and not really suitable for .500. However, the suitable 12 ga,. frame works reasonably well for the .500/.416, if done right, in my experience. The suitable 12 ga. frame size, in my opinion, is suitable for double rifle cartridges in the .450, .470 class size. Ellis is correct too, of course, regarding anything larger than the .500, in suitable cartridges for double rifle. A very talented Montana gunsmith I know converted several Spanish 10 gauge 3.5 inch mag. frames into full .577 NE, and I have done the same, so I know that the big 10 ga. mag. suitable frames, with Greener crossbolts work well for the .577, and, naturally, they work well for the .500, much better than any 12 ga. frame size, giving more suitable ending rifle weight and balance.

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tinker
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #201707 - 05/02/12 06:56 AM

Thanks for the tip on the book!
Just ordered a copy of Gun Craft.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DBLGN
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: tinker]
      #201919 - 08/02/12 03:23 AM

Jager,
I must appologize, we seem to have "highjacked" your thread - sorry.

As I have stated in other threads, I have been watching these forums/threads for some time, I have just recently decided to participate (via some sage advice from a young friend of mine). Anyway, thanks for the warm welcome.

Based on the photos from chapter on "fitting to the circle" in Venter's book, I may now have a fix for couple of doubles that have given me trouble and were put aside. Inletting a block of steel in the circle of the action, may just solve the problems. It will be a bit before I can try it, as I have two doubles that I am building and other repair work in the shop, but if it works out, I will let folks know. Might also be another chapter for the 3rd Edition of the book (God forbid that I have to go though all that again - would just prefer a re-print, but too much information comes up between printings). 3rd edition looks like it may be almost twice the volume of the 2nd edition - may never get it done. Sorry - I digress...... So much fun...so little time to enjoy it.....

Ellis

--------------------
DBLGN

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DarylS
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: DBLGN]
      #201926 - 08/02/12 04:07 AM

Due to all the 'modern' data for the .45/70, that round has become what is probably the easiest round there is to pick a pressure range and load to that pressure.

It matters not if you want to load to anything between 18,000psi all the way to 55,000 psi - any level in between has data listed to pressure with a variety of bullet weights and syles.

At 40,000 to 45,000 as suggested max for double shogun actions by Ellis, you can actually load to over 2,400fps with 300's, 2,200fps with 350gr. bullets and 2,100fps with 400's - or anything less the data is available.

Even an original Trapdoor Springfield (in good shape, of course) and loaded to sub-max loads (max listed is 28,000psi) using Varget, 3031 and Benchmark, can load to over 1,800fps with a 385gr. cast bullet & 1,800fps with 400's. Pressure-wise, they are soft loads, yet smack big game, big time. Drive a 300gr. Nosler Partition at 2,200fps for 300yard deer blasting? Safe max. listed for the trapdoor, with 4 other loads over 2,100fps. That's 300fps over factory ammo. Not bad for a round developed in 1873. That 300gr. jacketed bullet at over 2,200fps matches the .405 Winchester ballistics today.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Jager
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Re: which action for a 45-70 double rifle conversion ? [Re: DarylS]
      #202307 - 12/02/12 08:11 PM

no worries mate

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