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EricD
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To eject or not. That is the question!
      #19579 - 02/10/04 02:59 AM

When choosing a DRG double rifle, would you pick one with or without ejectors?

And why would you choose as you do?

Are any double rifles made with a selector that enables you to switch the ejectors "on and off" such as found on some Beretta SxS shotguns?

Erik D.


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mickey
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: EricD]
      #19583 - 02/10/04 01:16 PM

If I have a choice I take the ejectors. The resale value is from $1000 - 1500 more. yOu can always disconnect them if you want.

Non ejector rifles open and close much easier and smoother because of the lack of springs to compress.

I think the noise that is attributed to the ejector is over rated as the sound of two brass cases clanging to gether as they hit the ground is just as loud.

I wouldn't refuse a rifle without ejectors.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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zimhunter
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: EricD]
      #19587 - 02/10/04 11:35 PM

I have a Heym 88B in 375 that has a switch at rear of forearm that disables the ejectors. Works very nicely.
Very positive clicks so it does not move accidentally.
It's also flat and flush with stock.


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unspellable
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Reged: 06/03/04
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: mickey]
      #19591 - 03/10/04 07:59 AM

<< I think the noise that is attributed to the ejector is over rated as the sound of two brass cases clanging to gether as they hit the ground is just as loud. >>

The point in not having ejectors when noise is an issue is that you pull the cases out and stick them in your shirt pocket. Then they don't hit the ground. Some of the old timers even stuck to external hammer rifles as they could be silently cocked.

Today there is a trend for having all the gadgets on a rifle or gun whether they make sense or not. Here we do rough shooting for pheasants. Why do we need ejectors on the gun when they were developed for driven shooting which is almost unknown here in the US? One of the big points of a double rifle for big game is the two independent locks for reliability. Why complicate it with ejectors? If a third shot is required to stop a charge it's the backup man whose going to make it, ejectors or no ejectors.

Resale might be trifle less without ejectors, but then the purchase is that much cheaper too.

I have one gun with ejectors. It's faster to unload bu slower to load and close so no net gain. Although I'll admit it may be stiff to close due to newness and needs a see little use to free up.

(As long as am ranting, why is it here in America we insist on using a given gauge gun to do the next bigger gauge's job? 28's are sometimes loaded like 16's. 20's are almost always loaded like 12's and a lot of 12 gauge loads would be better in a 10. This trend has also led to a given gauge gun weighting as much as the next larger gauge ought to weigh. I just read an article praising a new 28. The thing weighed about what a good 12 ought to weigh.)



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470Rigby
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: EricD]
      #19595 - 03/10/04 10:46 AM

In reply to:

Are any double rifles made with a selector that enables you to switch the ejectors "on and off"




John Rigby fitted a tensioner screw to to the ejector springs in the forend iron that allowed the force of ejection to be adjusted, from full to zero, effectively converting it to a non-ejector. A very simple device, which surprisingly wasn't all that popular.

There are many situations where a non-ejector is preferable. For example, Tiger hunters in India, preferred non-ejectors, since the sound of the ejector often betrayed their location.

With practice, a non-ejector can be reloaded almost as quickly if the gun is allowed to rise with recoil and the gun opened while the barrels are vertical.

I prefer non-ejectors for quail hunting, since quite often the whole covey will take off at the sound of the ejector ping after the rise of a single bird.



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atkinson6
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: 470Rigby]
      #19611 - 05/10/04 09:29 AM

I can shoot an extractor rifle as fast as an ejector rifle for all practical purposes, ejectors rifles are tight to open and close..I like both ejectors and extractors and my new searcy has ejectors, but I am going to take them out, and that will make it easy to break open and close, a flick of the wrist will flip out the fired cases with a modicum of practice...I have shot a double a lot and I think I still like extractors best? If you were in the midst of a herd of elephants, the ejectors might direct their attention to you and I will buy off on that, darn near anything will, is it a problem? I don't really know. I do know I loose a lot of damned expensive brass with ejectors, it always lands in some muck or thick stuff where it can't be found!

You can always take them out and put them back, so you have a choice.


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AussieMike
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: unspellable]
      #19616 - 05/10/04 11:56 AM

I must say I like ejectors - I can reload my non ejector 375 Flanged just as fast as my ejector rifles by turning the rifle upside down as I open it, just like I can release the automatic safety on some of my rifles "automatically" when shouldering my rifle, but sometimes I stuff up. A DG rifle should minimise the chances of a stuff up, and, if you do stuff up should minimise the risk of it killing you.

Regarding the third shot being by someone else - on my one and only DG hunt (Cape Buffalo) we followed up a wounded bull and found it down but not out in thick jungle. My 470 doubled and I wasn't sure I had hit it and was really glad of the ejectors (and abscence of automatic safety) when I had to reload and follow up as my brain was a bit more addled than usual by the four times increased recoil. My PH was, at the time, otherwise engaged covering the wounded bull's mate, who was located 25 yards away, quartering behind us and threatening to charge. It sounds dramatic but it was over in less than 10 seconds with a good result despite two unexpected problems, a second buff threatenning to charge from behind and the 470 doubling.

mike


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unspellable
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: AussieMike]
      #19626 - 06/10/04 03:57 AM

Ejectors or no ejectors, no rifle should have an automatic safety, period. They automatically make the rifle unsafe.

I'm also opposed to auto safeties on the better grade of shotgun. One can pull the triggers back and close the action leaving the locks uncocked for storage. If one is serious enough about one's shotgun to spend serious money on it, then one ought to know how to operate it.

I have one shotgun with the best of both worlds. It has an auto safety, but if you push the safety forward and hold it there while closing, you can hold the triggers back and close it uncocked.


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Peterb
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: atkinson6]
      #19666 - 09/10/04 12:35 PM

Can't hear the rifle fire but can hear the ejectors? Hmmmmm. One shot might cause confusion as from whence it originates, but a second shot tells them where you are better than ejector clink. I am a double shotgun man and I like them both. I also prefer auto safeties. Now the people who trap/skeet shoot sometimes forget to take the safety off and miss a bird. I would rather miss a live bird than make a safety mistake. I have a dear friend who removes his auto safeties. He is a dear friend with whom I never hunt. I hunt with my thumb on the safety, and it only comes off when I am going to shoot.

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unspellable
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: Peterb]
      #19692 - 11/10/04 04:33 AM

An auto safety on a shotgun would be OK if they all had the same provision as one of mine does that allows closing the action uncocked.

However, you will note that the break open action is the only type fitted with auto safeties. I've never see one on a bolt action, slide action, or selfloader. What makes a double more dangerous than a self loader?

As for rifles, there have been a number of people killed due to auto safeties. They are a NO! NO! NO! NEVER! on a game rifle.

It is a common experience that game will often ignore the sound of a shot and spook at something like the clink of a cartridge case hitting the ground. I suppose a small sound signifies something sneaking up where as a shot might be taken for thunder or something.

It's been my experience that it's mainly some dogs that spook at the sound of a shot at any distance. (Our Miniature Schnauzer is upset when the neighbors shoot off firecrackers, the Scottish Highland Terror just thinks it's something interesting to check out.)



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atkinson6
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: unspellable]
      #19730 - 13/10/04 12:11 PM

PeterB,
On many ocassions a gunshot will not overly disturb buffalo or elephant under the right circumstances as I suspect it is much like thunder, they jump and run 25 yeards and start milling then begin to graze...but a metalic click of any kind will stampede a herd, or bring a herd or toothless cow right on top of you......


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bonanza50
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Reged: 07/05/04
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Loc: South Carolina, USA
Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: atkinson6]
      #19751 - 14/10/04 06:29 AM

Under extreem pressure to reload, like the special snap event (8 shots in 35 seconds) ejectors would have helped me. I only go off 6 rounds. I must admit, blazzing away with a double rifle is FUN!

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: bonanza50]
      #19866 - 20/10/04 12:40 PM

am I missing something...

my "cheesy japanese" SKB shotguns only eject the chambers that have been fired. and I can't imagine worrying about "noise" if you've just fired one of theese puppies!!!

maybe I just don't get it....

as for harder opening and closing, I can see that, espeically since the rifle ejectors are likely a lot stiffer than a 20ga shotgun!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #19971 - 24/10/04 04:08 AM

In reply to:

am I missing something...

my "cheesy japanese" SKB shotguns only eject the chambers that have been fired. and I can't imagine worrying about "noise" if you've just fired one of theese puppies!!!

maybe I just don't get it....

as for harder opening and closing, I can see that, espeically since the rifle ejectors are likely a lot stiffer than a 20ga shotgun!








Game, even deer are not overly excited by the fireing of a rifle, unless the bullet sprays them with gravel or bark!If you have ever been in africa, where elephant are breaking limbs out of Marula trees to get the fruit, then you know what the sound is like. The limbs poping sounds like rifle shots, yet you don't see other animals being starteled by the noise. Just work the bolt of a rifle, or clink two cartridge case together, and see what happens. There won't be an animal in sight in seconds. The difference is, the poping is a natural sound of the bush, the scrapeing of synthic clothing, matalic clink, and clatter is not.

I'll give you an example of what I mean! While hunting in the Oscura range of New Mexico, I sat watching about ten deer working their way up the opposite side of the canyon. They bedded down in the shady side. As I watched, I could hear shots being fired within 300 yds of these deer, and one shot just at the top of the ridge I was on. NO REACTION of the deer at all, not even a look in the dirrection of any of the shots. However, in a second, a Blue Jay gave a cry on top of their side of the canyon, immediatly, they were on their feet, and moveing out of the canyon down stream. In about ten minutes I saw a hunter appeare on top just above where the deer had been. I could still see the deer out at the mouth of the canyon, about 500 yds away, looking at the hunter. He jacked his bolt to check his chamber, You guessed it, the deer bolted!

The reason noise of the cases being ejected is, when hunting heavy bush, in a herd sittuation, one often works his way into the center of the herd to get at a very good bull buffalo, or elephant. When the shots are fired, the herd usually will turn their attention to the downed bull, instead of running. The opening of a double with ejectors, will pin-point your possition immediatly, and you may be covered in very large feet shortly! Ejectors are not needed for this type of hunting anyway, nobody can afford to shoot three or four bull elephant at on time, so there is not need for multiple shots, after the first two, and if more are needed for animal you just shot, loading, and closeing the rifle quietly is far more important.

I will say if ejectors are on the rifle I will not refuse to buy it, but for dangerous game I always disconnect them. And, I will not have an auto safety on a double made for dangerous game! You may use auto safeties, and selective ejectors if you want, I do not, and appologise to no one for that opinion. More people have been hurt, or killed because of the auto safeties, than those hurt by rifles with a manual safety! I use auto safeties on shotguns used for birds, but not on a dangerous game rifle! My opinion, and that is worth exactly what you paid for it! $0.00


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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luv2safari
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #19976 - 24/10/04 10:57 AM

I like ejectors on an o/u...beats digging out that bottom case in my 9,3x74r. I've never perfected a flick or dump technique that works.

I like extractors in side by sides...hate automatic safeties in anything!

As I ran onto this thread, I was cleaning up an old Belgian sxs shotgun I just purchased cheap. It is a decent quality old gun with automatic safety. I tried pushing the safety forward while pulling both triggers and closing the gun. I worked, and I can uncock the gun on closing, just as I do with my non-auto safety guns. I tried it with a mid 70's FAU belgian double just now...I couldn't release the springs the same way on this newer gun.

I do like ejectors while chucker or quail hunting, as things can get fast and furious at times. Our valley quail don't tend to expolde out all at once like a covey of Bobwhite do, giving several shot opportunities in a drawn out rise.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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bonanza
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #19991 - 25/10/04 12:38 AM

Don't extractors have more "camming" force anyhow? I've had stuck 20g. shotgun shell that the eject could not pop out, that would be bad news in a DR

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

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AussieMike
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: bonanza]
      #20012 - 25/10/04 06:45 PM

Another advantage of ejectors is that, when you want to grab the cases you can catch them 1/2 way out and not have to fumble about with the doll's head or Greener cross bolt extension (what is the proper name for that?).

mike


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unspellable
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: AussieMike]
      #20017 - 26/10/04 01:41 AM

<< Another advantage of ejectors is that, when you want to grab the cases you can catch them 1/2 way out and not have to fumble about with the doll's head or Greener cross bolt extension (what is the proper name for that?). >>

The proper term for doll's head is "doll's head". The proper term for a Greener cross bolt extension is "Greener cross bolt extension".

(Sorry, I just couldn't resist.)


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AussieMike
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: unspellable]
      #20031 - 26/10/04 10:46 AM

I wondered - I didn't think the Brits would make things that easy.

mike


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4seventy
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: EricD]
      #20068 - 27/10/04 06:04 PM

In reply to:

When choosing a DRG double rifle, would you pick one with or without ejectors?




ErikD,
As your question is about a Dangerous Game Double my choice would definately be WITH ejectors for sure.
Ejector double rifles need a different handling technique though compared to non ejector rifles.
If you learn how to handle an ejector double properly the ejectors are a big asset when dealing with big game up close.
If you cannot handle an ejector double correctly the ejectors will most likely become a big liability.
I have hunted both with ejectors and without on double rifles and thesedays I use 3 different doubles on big game and have a forth which is used mainly on wild boar.
All 4 doubles have ejectors and I wouldn't want to change that for any reason.


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atkinson6
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: 4seventy]
      #20145 - 29/10/04 08:07 AM

It boils down to choice, which do YOU like, not what someone else likes..both work when properly used..I like the extractors because the gun opens and shuts much easier and quiter, if I want to change loads..I can dump fired emptys and reload fast from practice, and probably as quick as I can with ejectors.

I wouldn't suggest ejectors because you can reach up and catch the case in mid air Aussie Mike, one might get stomped a bit by old M'Bogo, while doing such antics!


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mickey
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: atkinson6]
      #20166 - 29/10/04 01:32 PM

I had the ejectors on my Holland re timed so that they throw the shells up and to the left. They land in my shirt pocket so I don't have to bend over to pick them up.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: mickey]
      #20210 - 30/10/04 08:15 AM

In reply to:

I had the ejectors on my Holland re timed so that they throw the shells up and to the left. They land in my shirt pocket so I don't have to bend over to pick them up.





BWWWWWWW HHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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AussieMike
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: atkinson6]
      #20285 - 31/10/04 10:57 PM

Ray,

You're quite right - it is best to practice NOT catching the brass before a DG hunt. I routinely catch the ejected brass from my lever actions too, and find I still do it even when pig hunting.

Seriously, I wonder how many people practice shooting and reloading fast - it's difficult to do at most rifle ranges (at least in this country). I practice out in the bush and have learnt that, for me, a 4 cartridge carrier in my right shirt pocket is the way to go (I know, it might catch on the rifle butt when rapidly shouldering the rifle, but I'm a big boy and my shoulder is a long way from my shirt pocket).

mike


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NE450No2
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Re: To eject or not. That is the question! [Re: AussieMike]
      #20302 - 01/11/04 03:51 AM

On all my rifles I carry extra ammo in a butt stock shell carrior. My favorite is one made my www.murrayleather.com.
I have ejector and extractor doubles. I usually spend more time trying to capture the brass on the ejector rifles. With the extractor rifles if I am under "pressure" , it is a simple matter to just open the rifle pluck out the empties, let them drop at your feet and reload off the shell carrier. I did this when I shot my bull elephant... However I must confess even with my buff scrabbling around about 35 or so yards away when I shot two solids, and later when at about 25 as he started to get up, and I shot another solid, reloaded and fired a 500gr Swift A Frame, I removed the fired brass from the rifle and placed in in my front pants pocket. The reason? I just did not feel under "pressure" and felt I had plenty of time to complete the reloading process. Bottom line is that it does not make any difference to me, I can use them both, however in hunting elephants I prefer the extractor gun.
I have shot all my doubles enough that I have not had any trouble switching from one to the other.


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