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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land
      #199381 - 14/01/12 02:26 AM

I'm surprrised no one's spouting about this new round yet. Pehaps waiting for some rifles? If I lived in Australia, USA or Canada for that matter, I'd have one or the wildcat equivalent, which I do have. This new one puts cheap dies and ready made brass on the table - owning a .17 cal. semi wildcat couldn't be easier now. Shooting from a rest or off the hood of the truck you see EVERY hit. These little guys are quite incredible, putting out way more performance than their diminutive size would suggest. My own .17Ackley Hornet which is quite similar to the .17 Hornady Hornet, has taken gophers to 480yards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHDDIbA1bNA&feature=player_embedded

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: DarylS]
      #199384 - 14/01/12 03:50 AM

Looks like a fun little round...I shot a .17 Rem for a while and was a ton of fun ..

Guess my question is..I have 3 different rifles in a .204 Ruger which is shooting a .32 gr at over 4000fps ..which also allows me to watch the hits as recoil is very minimal..just dont see any advantage over that with the new 17 hornet..honestly, and this may seem nitpicky, but the .17 was always a pain in my butt to clean...smaller rod and patches needed so more stuff to pack with to the range or p-dog towns...

Think it is a great round..but think I'll stick with my .204's...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: Ripp]
      #199389 - 14/01/12 04:51 AM

From my early days of shooting, I had a hankering for a small cartridge that would combine the manners of my hornets with the reach of my 22.250 and the 17Rem was making a bit of a splash but the reported difficulties with fouling and wind effected shots put me off the 17 cal. I really liked the look of the 17mk iv and thought that if there was an inbetween cartridge on the Fireball case it would have to be a winner. Step forward a few years (quite a few) and the 20 VarTarg came on the scene.
While the 17 Hornet runs a 20 gn v-max at 3650, my 20 VarTarg sets a 35gn Berger out the muzzle at 3735fps (19.2gn H4198 - 2207) and this dose indeed have the reach of my 22.250 but with better manners than my hornets had and better accuracy than either ever had. I have also got a under 200 yd load of the 34gn nosler (cheap bulk pack bullets) at 2800fps over 9gn Blue Dot. A veritable goldmine of a little cartridge and have even taken goats with the Berger - 3735fps load. All the small game rifle that I always wanted.

Von Gruff.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: Ripp]
      #199390 - 14/01/12 05:09 AM

Interesting Ripp, however your findings don't jive with mine. I don't use a factory barrel any more and that might make the difference.

My Pac-Nor 3 groove .17AH barrel gets a single, sometimes 2 powder solvent patches every 300 to 500rounds - no accuracy loss as high as 600 rounds. It doesn't copper foul at all, so no soaking time is necessary. I use a nylon brush to put the solvent into the bore and loosen the powder fouling - that's all there is. I do not use bronze brushes - ever.

I have resisted getting a .204, due to the greater recoil spoiling the visuals. That's what happened with my heavy barrel .17 Rem CZ - I'd lose sight of roughly 20 % of them. With the .17AH, every one of them is visible, even at 20X to 24X and as close as 100yards - sometimes you can see them expand before they break - depends on the shuttering of the eyeballs and scope accuity.

Also, when shooting rock chucks with a friend's Tac .20 off the hood of his truck (Bozeman, Mt.) & using a bipod, no rear bag, I only saw maybe 20 hits out of 56 kills, 64 shots - he was spotting for me. The ranges ran 404 yards to 440 yards reistered on his Leica range finder. The Rem. M700 rifle had a 20X Leupold on it with a Pac-Nor 3 groove bl. The Tac .20 is virtually identical as far as ballistics are concerned, to the .204, so the recoil would also be identical. We were shooting the last of his 33gr. Vmaxs at 4,250fps chronographed - a bit hot, maybe, but his rifle loved the load. It was a strong 3/8" rifle with his load of 10X. It was almost like shooting a laser, well, seemed that way. Larger game might give better visuals, I think.

Remington M700's in .17Rem. have a history of badly fouling in as little as 15 rounds. That propensity for fouling gave all .17's a bad name - one they do not deserve.

I had a CZ .17 Rem at one time and in 200rounds, would pick up a bit of copper, but not much. At 200 rounds, there was no dropping off in accuracy. It was a solid 1/2 MOA rifle. After cutting the barrel off and re-chambering it to .17AH, I was able to run over 300rounds before accuracy started to open up. It was a 3/8" rifle after rechambering to .17 AH. I put a couple thousand rounds through that re-chambered barrel, then re-barreled it a couple years ago, with a Pac-Nor barrel & chambered that with my Pacific reamer. It will cloverleaf them if I'm lucky.

Here's the Montana trip for rockchucks. We also shot some ground squirrels out the window of the truck, with Ruger semi-auto .22 handguns. That was fun too.
I was not well at that time - was on some pretty stiff morphine due to back problems.
The adult rockchuck's head had just enough resistance for the bullet to work well.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: DarylS]
      #199391 - 14/01/12 05:16 AM

I don't know what the new Hornady round will do with a 25gr. Vmax, but that bullet has a BC of .235.

My .17AH gets 3,640fps with the 25gr. Vmax, which gives it pretty much the same drop and wind drift as a .22/250 or .224 WTBY, much flatter shooting than a .223 can do. The trouble with .17 cal. Bergers, is their poor BC's.

The 20gr. Vmax has a BC of .188. At 3,925fps, my .17Hornet does just fine, so far, to 470yards with that bullet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: DarylS]
      #199401 - 14/01/12 08:08 AM

Quote:

Interesting Ripp, however your findings don't jive with mine. I don't use a factory barrel any more and that might make the difference.

sometimes you can see them expand before they break - depends on the shuttering of the eyeballs and scope accuity.

Remington M700's in .17Rem. have a history of badly fouling in as little as 15 rounds. That propensity for fouling gave all .17's a bad name - one they do not deserve.

]




sometimes you can see them expand before they break (quote)
---really???
now that is funny...

I have a cz and 2 coopers in .204 and more often than not I actually do c the splat on impact...so not sure if the rifles w/scope are heavier that i am using or what..but rarely miss seeing the action...

The 17 I did have was as you described above..and yes, it did foul rapidly and yes it did suck..hence, no longer have one...at least in centerfire format..I do have 3 in 17 HMR ..and my friend Rod and I have shot many many over 200 with in--especially the heavy barreled Anshutz..with a 4-14 VX-3---works really well..but on p-dogs--no explosion..they just tip over...apparently heart failure..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: DarylS]
      #199402 - 14/01/12 08:11 AM

Quote:

Here's the Montana trip for rockchucks. We also shot some ground squirrels out the window of the truck, with Ruger semi-auto .22 handguns. That was fun too.
I was not well at that time - was on some pretty stiff morphine due to back problems.
The adult rockchuck's head had just enough resistance for the bullet to work well.





We went out on a ranch one day several years ago to shoot rockchucks..apparently they had not been harrassed for some time as we shot 31 in one day..along with many columbian ground squirrels..was a great day..at that time I was using my .243 with .70 grain ballistic tips at 3550fps...did an amazing job on them..will have to search for photos..if I find them iwll post a few..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: Ripp]
      #199403 - 14/01/12 08:28 AM


Had a mate who came shooting who used a 17 Rem, was great on the foxes.

Cleaning 17's is a lot easier now with foam bore cleaners lie Wipe Out or the liquid version, WIPE OUT PATCH OUT.


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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: 500Nitro]
      #199409 - 14/01/12 09:46 AM

Since you have put Aussie Land in your title Daryl I'll chip in.

There was a time when fox skins were worth good money here in Oz, up to $25 each back in the 70's. That was good money. My brother in law bought a car with his earnings. (A green Torana G-Pack for those with long memorys) He bought and used a Remington 700 BDL in .17 remington and I have used it extensively. It is a great calibre, accurate and with head shots will bring down goats and pigs.

It is said that wind is its biggest down fall but I have never had any problems with the Remington.

The .17 Ackley Hornet was also a very popular round as the lower velocity reduced pelt damage. The .22 Hornet was a popular calibre in Australia and lots of people had rifles and brass to modify. The limiting factor back then was the choice of projectiles. Just two. The Hornady 25 Hp and the Remington 25. New projectiles have obviously improved the .17's versatility.

A close mate had a .17 Ackley built on a BRNO Hornet action. It had a #4 Shilen barrel which initially didn't shoot very well. The Gunsmith reduced the barrel 1" at a time until it was only 20" long and it was a tackholer. Go heavy and go short with the .17 Hornet.

You will find a lot of .17 Hornets in Oz as well as .22 Hornets. Cheap to reload and quiet owners tend to hang onto them and not trade them. It has largely been superceded by the .223 these days.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: tophet1]
      #199421 - 14/01/12 01:33 PM

Yep the .17 Hornet used to be a really good fur hunting cartridge.

I have always wanted one.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (14/01/12 11:47 PM)


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Bindi2
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Reged: 03/03/11
Posts: 80
Loc: WA, Aust
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: NitroX]
      #199449 - 14/01/12 11:37 PM


I call my K Hornet with 35gn vmax the silent assassin. The 223 is not on my to buy list 6mm 58gn vmax @ 3800fps sees to that.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: Bindi2]
      #199466 - 15/01/12 04:52 AM

Friend came gopher shooting with me one trip, with his .22-250 Sako. Of course, I had to spot his shots as he rarely saw anything, even with it's low powered 3x-9X scope. I let him shoot a few with my .17AH. We were working a hill line about 310yards away. He laughed out loud for the 1/2 hour it took to get my rifle back from him.

After heading home, he gave me his Sako, the barrel came off and we ordered him a Pac-Nor 3 groove, 9" twist. I had it threaded to his Sako action, then I chambered it with my .17AckBee reamer. That wonderful Sako extractor pulls out the .408" rimmed case perfectly after firing. At 4,100fps with 20gr. Vmax's and 3,750fps with 25 Vmax, they're a bit of a stretched string on ground squirrels.

When developing ammo, I made a .187", 5 shot group with his rifle while fireforming brass. He mounted a 6-24X M4200 mil dot scope on it. At 24X, the dots give him poi's to over 500yards. That makes it quite easy for fairly long range 1st round kills.

The new bullets improve the downrange ballistics of the .17's quite a bit.

With a BC of around .270 through .290, Tod Kindler's "Golds" of 25 through 30gr. weights make them the equivalence of .22/250's and .220 Swifts shooting similar BC bullets, ie: Vmaxs - except the big ones kick so much, you see nothing. The .17's have come a long way - the PPC's and BR's necked down, shortened .1", .150", other cases - the .17 family is still growing.

I should wrap this up by stating, once someone shoots a .17AH - they usually have to have one - or one similar, as Lennard did with the .17AckBee. Those people already own at least one .17 Hornet, figure everyone needs at least one as well. That now includes the new factory .17 Hornet by Hornady. Many of the old hands at the small bore shooting are ordering reamers or pestering Ruger and CZ to bring it out in a factory rifle under their banners.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (15/01/12 05:19 AM)


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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: DarylS]
      #199473 - 15/01/12 07:02 AM

That's good news Daryl.

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the ethical, I found that when sniping larger game up to feral goats in weight, I took a lot more time with the .17 to place my head shots into the butt of the ear. I always seemed to wait for the perfect presentation and control my shot better.

Learning to wait and even pass up a shot, was a valuable lesson when hunting 'expensive' larger game later in life.

The .17's certainly are addictive. The best thing is that you can watch the whole shot due to lack of recoil.

Damn it Daryl, you've got me thinking of another rifle ......

Edited by tophet1 (15/01/12 07:11 AM)


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: tophet1]
      #199480 - 15/01/12 08:39 AM

One of these could be great on the bastard little rodents out in the sage around our place.
Perhaps I'll keep my eyes out for a mini action on which to build such a lazerBeam...






Cheers
Tinker


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264
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Reged: 15/02/11
Posts: 615
Loc: NT Australia
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: tophet1]
      #199671 - 16/01/12 10:13 PM

I ran a BSA 17 rem for a while and it worked great on foxes. Got the 17Ackley urge so decided to build one on a ruger 77 hornet action. Spent a fair amount of time and effort to get it to shoot. Then a brno 465 came by at the right price decided to keep the more accurate of the two. Ive still got the cz. Its a heavy barrel stainless that was set up by Ron Webb. From the fox skin days.
It shows the signs of being in the cab of a car on the stock but it shoots well. Mostly used for bunnie busting out to about 250m and spotlighting foxes .
It gets minimal use in the NT, occasionally it gets used on feral cats or toad busting.
It was my first wild cat and foray into case developing and fire forming.
Its no harder to clean than my 243's. A great little cartridge Heres some pics Mick
Nice fox 240m thru the eye.
Slow feral cat 1st with 17 ackley
Good boar with 17 ackley


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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
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Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: New Ctg. Perfect small game round for Aussie Land [Re: 264]
      #199971 - 19/01/12 02:57 PM

Had a 17 Bee back in Gunsmith school in the early 50's. It was a bullpup on an 03 action. Then in later years I had one of the first factory 17's a Harrington & Richardson. Very nice on an Fn action I remember. Then again years later a 17 Remington 700. I always ended up selling them when I got completely PO'd about how much trouble they were to get powder into the case. Then I bought one of the first Kimber 17 Mach II's . Shot one hole groups literally but was less than fair on Coyotes. Only good behind the ear for them. So bought one of the Savages with the pretty varigated laminated thumbhole stock in 17HMR. It does in Coyotes easily and the AccuTrigger is pretty neat. And you just buy your ammo off the shelf and never even think of the term reload. Now THAT'S a perfect 17.

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