Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Cape guns and Guild Guns

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1
blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Cape guns and Guild Guns
      #19921 - 22/10/04 08:48 AM

Does anyone shoot cape guns?Do they take some getting use to with the small & big barrels?Also what is a guild gun?I was told that they were student built guns by the makers apprentice to learn on?I would have no idea if this is true,but see lots for sale that are supposedly belguim /german made?Most of the ones i have seen are shot loose as a goose....are some guild guns as nice as name brands?The ones i have seen were shotguns,were they made in double rifles also and are they still being made today?I just have never read/heard anything much at all on these interesting weapons.....Is the cape gun a poor mans drilling or can they be as expensive?What is a good price range/value for a decent cape?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AussieMike
.300 member


Reged: 01/09/04
Posts: 236
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW, Aust...
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #19928 - 22/10/04 02:01 PM

I've hunted rabbits a bit with a 500/450 No2 Musket/14ga Westley Richards hammerless cape gun. It may "take some getting use to with the small & big barrels" but I never got used to it. For me, it always felt awful, muzze heavy, lopsided and clumsy.

It seems to me that if you want two very different barrels then an U/O is the way to go.

mike

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DPhillips
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #19932 - 22/10/04 02:36 PM

Maybe we can get Roger Kehr (Scrollcutter) or SDH or others that are ACGG members here to chime in, but I'm under the impression before a gunmaker is accepted into the Guild, they do have to submit a piece of work for review. Kind of like passing the board for some of the other professional organizations, except this takes much more talent.

I think, and am probably wrong, but when Guild members contribute their area of expertise to a firearm project for fundraising, it is considered a "Guild Gun" also. Say, if Mark Stratton did the metal work, Chic Worthing did the stockwork, Roger Kehr did the engraving, etc...

Hopefully someone can chime in and straighten me out if I'm wrong.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #19957 - 23/10/04 02:11 PM

I shoot a J.P. Sauer cape gun in 12 ga and 8x57jr. I was fortunate to find a two barrel set, pre war, at the Big Reno Show about 12 years ago. A seller had the two barrel set...12/12 and 12/8x57 for a good price about the time I could pay the price.

I used the 12/8x57jr in Africa a couple of times on warthog. I like the fact that it is much nicer to carry and better handling than drillings. I also like to have 00 buck or a Breneke sulg in the smooth tube. This particular cape gun throws the old classic Breneke sulgs about the same place at 80 meters as the 80 meter standing sight for the 8x57. The folding blade is for 150 meters, and the Sellier & Bellot 196 factory ammo works well. The Norma loading is far too hot and is erratic as hell. I have a Weaver K3 P&CH in claws for it; the rings are 1" split rings made up by Lee LeBas. I just took possession of a pretty good GECO (it appears to be an early Schmidt & Bender) 6x42 rail mount scope with the claws attatched. They are just right for fitting into the present claw bases...just minor file work and moving to the proper position on the rail.

I've noticed that I get a crescent shaped movement as I shoot quickly enough to warm the barrel significantly, starting out to the right, then swinging on upward a bit.

I recently sold a nice little 16/9,3x72r cape gun with a 22mm Hensoldt 4x in claws. I sold it to a good friend, who is still a friend after the transaction...it was that good a gun.

Many people refer to o/u combination guns as "cape guns", but only a sxs is a true cape gun, IMHO.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #19958 - 23/10/04 02:22 PM

Oh, as to prices...cape guns sell for a bit less than comperable drillings, but not a whole lot less. The market for a cape gun is much smaller than for a drilling, and the drilling market ain't all that BIG!

As to being a poor man's drilling, they are not. Good cape guns are hard to find...harder than good drillings. This keeps the relative price of cape guns close to drilling prices.

As to shooting cape guns, they handle much like a good sxs shotgun, but are on average a bit heavier due to the weight of the rifle barrel. This is my observation from owning only three, past and present, however. The real trick to shooting a cape gun is remembering instantly which trigger to pull. It is embassasing to dead center a grouse with an 8x57 or put a load of 6 shot up a fleeing bucks ass...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: luv2safari]
      #20191 - 30/10/04 01:21 AM

The term guild gun is questionable, It could be a gun built by the American Custom Gun Guild, one that was auctioned off for a certain year...

But normally the accepted term "Guild Gun", at least in my circle is referring to one of those neat little German rifles in 8x57, 7x57, 9.3x62 etc. that have skinny stocks, egg cheek pieces, perhaps half octogan and half round barrels, butter knife bolt handles and so fourth, that were built by German Guild members, that had a small shop about like my closet, and could make a perfectly round ball out of a square block of steel WITH A FILE!

There are thousands of these nice old guns floating around, most were brought back in some soldiers pack from WW2, and others were shipped in and sold...They are a pretty fair investment and today will cost you about $800 to $2500. and up...

Some companies like JP Sauer made some very nice guild guns or guild type guns and they are referred to as guild guns...

The term has evolved to enclude about any skinny stocked,schnable forend, butterknife bolt gun IMO....and today is used pretty loosly, thus the confusion...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
SDH
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 47
Loc: MT
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: atkinson6]
      #20206 - 30/10/04 05:50 AM

The term "Guild Gun" has nothing to do with the American Custom Gunmakers Guild although the organization now has a stamp available for marking guns made by ACGG members. Dphillips, you are basically correct about the ACGG, but I don't think that is the context referred to here.
Atkinson is close to right with his explaination. The theory is that an apprentice made up the gun to pass his "master" status. In my experience, the term "Guild Gun" is used to describe any no-name German, Austrian, Belgian or Swiss shotgun or rifle that exhibits some degree of quality in manufacture, but nobody has ever heard of the maker.
I currently have a 16 ga. Austrian boxlock sxs by a M. Ogriss and a Belgian proofed French 12 ga. sxs marked LeCotere a Lyon. Both are lovely shotguns in quality of fit, finish, construction, stock design and engraving. I know of one other gun by Ogris, a single shot rifle.
I built a custom 16 ga. A&D type boxlock on a German proofed no-name gun a few years ago that I would swear was J.P. Sauer components. It turned out being a real dandy.

As for Cape guns, I never handled a sxs that felt right to me, just out of balance. I do have an O/U 16x8mm backaction sidelock hammer gun by Peterlongo, Insbruck that is a delight to handle and a marvel of detailed craftsmanship. Folding leaf barrel sights, a pop-up tang peep, sinlge-set trigger, rebounding locks, and lovely floral engraving. Unfortunately I have not been able to determine what the 8mm rifle barrel is chambered for. I've done a chamber cast and tried various cartridges in the chamber to no avail. It is a very fine combo gun and maybe one of these days I'll get it figured out.
If one can recognize quality and knows how to evaluate a continetal gun for wear and determine chambering, there are some really good buys on these so called Guild Guns.
Personally, when I go deer hunting I'm not going to shoot birds and when bird hunting I'm not interested in deer. Although last Weds. hunting antelope I flushed three coveys of Huns closing the last ranch gate of the day and sure wish I had a shotgun along.

--------------------
SDH
www.finegunmaking.com

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
antitank
.224 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 2
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #20942 - 16/11/04 08:50 PM

Several years ago I picked up a Hollaway and Naughton Cape gun in nice condition but the choice of rifle barrel left me baffled. Who in there right mind would couple a 12 gauge with a 32/20? The weight of the 32/20 barrel, which was enormous to match the 12ga barrel, brought the total weight up to 10 1/2 lbs.

At first I contemplated rechambering to 303 British - but decided against that as the twist would have been all wrong! So I decided to have the barrel rebored - the first step was to decide upon the new calibre. I didn't want to go much bigger in bore diameter so the posibilities were either 0.333" or 0.358" The first is too difficult to get bullets for and the second never seemed to catch on in England. Finally I decided on the 8 x 57Rmm Mauser. It's wasn't a British caliber but it's easy to reload!

I haven't got the barrels back from Sprinter in Adelaide yet - but it wont be long now!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: antitank]
      #21019 - 20/11/04 05:06 AM

What about all the old drillings out there chambered in 9.3x72r?I have one and the ammo is expensive and hard to get in usa except for selier & bellet i dont know who even makes it at 2.50$ a shot.I thought about a insert but was told a 9mm makarov was about all i could shoot....
Is there a way to rechamber a different cartridge for this 9.3x72r round?I really dont know about pressures but in the old guns-100years-I would assume a milder pressure cartridge would be much better.Anyone ever rechamber a 9.3x72r or insert tube one?Or any other old gun?Also would a 20gauge or 28 gauge insert be better to shoot than a 12ga. or 16ga. in the old guns?Will shooting them make them loose and seperate and maybe they should just be retired?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #21021 - 20/11/04 06:49 AM

blackbearhunter

the common drilling in germany before ww2 was the "foersterdrilling" 16/65x16/65x9,3x72R, I think you have one. the 9,3 x 72 R is a very fine cartrige. everyone in germany with a real knowledge of guns will tell you this( please don't think I know enough). give this cartridge a chance and reload, also the 16 bore. people believe today the 16 bore is good for nothing, thats not truth.the 9,3 cartridge is load now again from RWS if you not satisfied with S&B ammo.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: pwm]
      #21031 - 20/11/04 03:34 PM

German/Austrian combination guns are my thing! I am quite happy to say that the advent of the S&B ammo on the US market is the best thing to happen to us drilling and cape gun lovers. The 9,3x72r ammo performs well and is quite similar to the original loadings. The 8x57IR in S&B regulates right on in all four guns I have with that as the rifle barrel. The 7x57r with the 175 gr cutted edge bullet regulated well in the one drilling I tried it in.

The 9,3x74r was a different story. I have had erratic results with the S&B in the 74...I suggest you stick with RWS or Norma in the 9,3x74r.

Don't ever sleeve the 16 barrels, unless they are a mess. Buy 65mm shells like Gamebore and shoot away. While a bit expensive, how much do you shoot the 9,3x72r, anyway? Cape guns and drillings won't take the kind of shooting volume that bolt rifles do, and they were not meant to take out to the back 40 and blast off 1,000 rounds. I shoot no more than a couple of rounds of rifle ammo through any of mine in a season. They were not meant for allot of shotgunning, either, at least the drillings weren't. Drillings tend to loosen up quickly.
A little was trimmed here and there to keep them from being too big and heavy.

I've killed 5 deer and a black bear with the 9,3x72r. It is very effective within 100 yards...maybe 125 and performs about like a 35 Remington. The biggest problem with the x72 is the crummy bullet design we are stuck with, and we CANNOT load it any hotter!!!!!! Don't even go there!!!!! I wish I could find a little tougher bullet for the 9,3x72r for black bear hunting. The traditional 193 gr flat nose is too soft.

Enjoy hunting with something a bit different. Those old calibers and bores worked then, and they still do...Classics...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AussieMike
.300 member


Reged: 01/09/04
Posts: 236
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW, Aust...
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: luv2safari]
      #21066 - 21/11/04 07:34 PM

luv2safari (and everyone else),

regarding your comments on drillings not being made to shoot too much - do you include late model drillings in this comment. I've got a 9.3x74R/12ga 1990's Merkel that I'm setting up as my "one gun" and, on the basis that if you're using one gun you should know how to shoot it, I've been doing a lot of plinking - maybe 15-20 rounds per week of 9.3x74R and 50 22LR using an insert. At the moment I'm not doing much clay target shooting but when I'm off my crutches I anticipate shooting 25+ clays per week too.

I've heard it said that if a break action goes "off face" it is easy to fix and we got a couple of very good shotgun/double rifle 'smiths in Australia but I'd like to avoid problems. Do you think it is a pressure/backthrust issue - I might go to cast bullets and trap loads.

mike

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: AussieMike]
      #21084 - 22/11/04 04:06 AM

I just returned from 2 weeks in the Czech Republic and in Bavaria. I was fortunate enough to go on four driven hunts on four seperate days. The prevelant firearm was the O/U 12 ga/ rifle. Mostly the caliber of the rifle was 7x57R or 7x65R. Their were quite a few 9.3x72R in CZ. Also one Kalishnikov in CZ.

The animals shot were mostly Boars with 'any Deer' being the case on one Drive. (that was fun)



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: AussieMike]
      #21087 - 22/11/04 04:39 AM

AussieMike,

You have the right idea in my opinion. Using cast bullets and trap loads are the right approach when shooting drillings for recreation. The slow 9,3x72r was made for cast bullets.

Even the circa 1983 Simson I had, a higher grade gun and well made, loosened a bit from my frequent recreational use and heavy field loads for late season chucker, and for Guinea fowl and Francolin. It was in 12/12/9,3x74r. I use cast bullets for plinking in my Tribbel drilling with a Dural receiver in 8x57IR and 3/4 oz or 1 oz loads in the 16 ga tubes. Be sure to use a good quality grease on the hinge pin, then wipe it off before storing the gun.

The 12/9,3x74r Simson was the only post War drilling I have owned, other than my Sauer 3000 in 12/12/ 30-06: it appeared no stouter than the quality later per War guns. The groups opened up to around 2 1/2" with good hand loads in the 9,3 (not hot loads, either). Lee LeBas put it back on face, and the groups went back to 1"-, then he bought the gun from me... I've not shot the Sauer 3000 enough to pass judgement yet.

You posed a GOOD question! I'll have to do some research...

J.P. Sauer wrote me recently that they DO NOT recommend using rifle insert barrels heavier than 22 Hornet in their shotgun barrels. I wanted to insert a 9,3x74r into the left barrel...I guess I'll stick with my 22 Mag insert.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Siskiyous6
.275 member


Reged: 21/11/04
Posts: 69
Loc: Del Norte COunty, CA
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #21128 - 22/11/04 06:04 PM

I picked up an English side lever cape gun with damascus barrels made by Weston. It has a 40-65 Winchester rifle barrel. It is off the face, but I paid next to nothing for it. It is along term project preparing to shoot it , but will definately be fired again.

--------------------
Pass it on!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AussieMike
.300 member


Reged: 01/09/04
Posts: 236
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW, Aust...
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: luv2safari]
      #21222 - 23/11/04 09:35 PM

Do you worry about flame cutting the shotgun barrel on the side closest to the 22WMRF insert? I tried one but found I was getting a lot of "hard to remove" fouling at the level of the end of the barrel insert and stopped using it as I became worried about bore damage. Cartridges were Win jacketed. Fouling etc seems much less with 22LR.

mike

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: AussieMike]
      #21271 - 24/11/04 01:05 PM

A-Mike,

I don't shoot it too much and have not experienced any problems. I can well see how this could happen, though.

My Hornet insert was a full length. I let it go with a nice drilling like the fool I am... Now I am trying to buy it back from the drilling buyer...he won't budge; the little Hornet is a tack driver.

The 22 WMR does all I need it to do, however. It is much easier to carry in the field when not inserted!!! It is the longer version Kreighoff insert...not a full length, but about 12" long.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MacNaughton
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 55
Loc: Somerset. U.K.
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: AussieMike]
      #30551 - 05/05/05 12:58 PM

I think that every Cape gun that I`ve handled has felt awkward and clumsy - they don`t handle or balance like either a double rifle or a SxS shotgun.
I had a bit of a mind `boggling` moment there - trying to imagine the effect of using a 500/450 No2 on rabbits ! ( Yeah, I figured it out ........ eventually ! )

--------------------
Nothing compares to a `Best Gun.`

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Cape guns and Guild Guns [Re: luv2safari]
      #30624 - 06/05/05 10:04 AM

luv2safari
Contact www.hawkbullets.com
They can make you some heavier/stronger bullets. I would think that .030 or .035 jkts would work at 9,3x72 velocities.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
1 registered and 58 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Huvius 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 6114

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved