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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Bowhunting + Bows, Spears & Knives

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ruffcountry
.300 member

Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 210
Loc: usa

Arrowhead
#197899 - 27/12/11 01:29 PM

What do you think about this ?

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Double Rifle Shooters Society

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27017
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: ruffcountry]
#197906 - 27/12/11 02:24 PM

That's a cool trophy/keepsake.

That chert point stood up well. I use white chert for flints in my rifles and smoothbore & I prefer it to black English flints. The chert is harder and generally lasts longer than flint, in a rifle lock or as arrow points.

Obsidion, popular in the West Coastal region and mountains, would have fractured upon impact with the bone.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Arrowhead [Re: DarylS]
#197909 - 27/12/11 02:41 PM

Very cool!

Cheers
Tinker

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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ruffcountry
.300 member

Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 210
Loc: usa

Re: Arrowhead [Re: DarylS]
#197910 - 27/12/11 02:48 PM

It's not mine , someone I know found it in Texas , probaly about 25 years ago . I dont know how old it is or what kind of animal that bone is from , but I've always thought it was very cool .

It not real plain in the photo but you can see a bit of the projectile coming through the bone where the other black spot should be inside .

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Double Rifle Shooters Society

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CommandCar
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA

Re: Arrowhead [Re: ruffcountry]
#197938 - 28/12/11 03:32 AM

Very cool. Your friend should consider getting the bone identified (bison?) and getting it carbon dated. I'd love to know the whole story... Could probabally be done easily through a local musuem or university.

Thanks for sharing.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27017
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: CommandCar]
#197949 - 28/12/11 04:48 AM

Elk or horse maybe?

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gryphon
.450 member

Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: DarylS]
#197962 - 28/12/11 07:50 AM

Thats a fantastic keepsake...a 'have to have!'

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Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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kamilaroi
.400 member

Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: gryphon]
#197965 - 28/12/11 08:29 AM

As it's been exposed to the elements the C14 dating process will be invalidated. I'd suggest at least a century old as the bone is well weathered.

Edited by kamilaroi (28/12/11 08:31 AM)

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ruffcountry
.300 member

Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 210
Loc: usa

Re: Arrowhead [Re: DarylS]
#197981 - 28/12/11 03:49 PM

No elk in this area , not even a century ago but bison ,horse , even cow , I suppose it could be any of them . I should have put a ruler next to it in the photo so you could see it size (maybe next time ) it is about 5-6 inches long . It seems to me to be too large for our deer . Perhaps a butcher could tell us about what size animal it was .

She has a quite a collection . Here are couple more she found not to many miles away from the bone . The one on the right is about 4-5 inches .

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aromakr
.375 member

Reged: 20/04/11
Posts: 849
Loc: Hamilton, Montana

Re: Arrowhead [Re: ruffcountry]
#197983 - 28/12/11 05:04 PM

I would take to your local University's Zoology department, the Professor should be able give you a good idea of the specie.
Bob

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kamilaroi
.400 member

Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: aromakr]
#197985 - 28/12/11 08:19 PM

IIRC the shaping of the (presumed) arrow head will give a cue to its antiquity.

And to coin a phrase "it's drawing a long bow" to assume...

Edited by kamilaroi (28/12/11 08:22 PM)

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27017
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: kamilaroi]
#197999 - 29/12/11 06:43 AM

The depth of penetration in the bone shows more towards a lance or atlatl, not an arrow from a bow.

Large game arrow points were very small as a rule.

Remember hearing or possibly having the 'bird' points often found at the buffal drops and reported by the anthropologists? Those 'bird points' are actually large game arrow heads. The small size was necesary for the requisite penetration to the vitals form relatively weak bows. Yes - they were sinew backed, but still relatviely weak & did not have good cast.

Those beautiful points, similar size to the imbedded one shown in the vertebrae are either lance points, perhaps knives, or very large atlatl points, in my opinion. Given the size, they are most certianly not arrow points - it is normal to think they are & is not indicitive of anything negative.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ruffcountry
.300 member

Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 210
Loc: usa

Re: Arrowhead [Re: DarylS]
#198046 - 29/12/11 04:16 PM

I had a reply all typed up but it timed me out and I lost it .

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kamilaroi
.400 member

Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: ruffcountry]
#198048 - 29/12/11 04:34 PM

Daryl,

I think they're archeos. Anthropos document langage and customs, archaeos do the stones and bones stuff.

(Indian scout to Custer: "what you mean WE got problems, paleface?"

Edited by kamilaroi (29/12/11 04:36 PM)

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ruffcountry
.300 member

Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 210
Loc: usa

Re: Arrowhead [Re: DarylS]
#198049 - 29/12/11 04:48 PM

I concur that those " beatiful points" are not arrowheads but more likely dart points for atlatl .I dont think they are overly large for darts .
I still waver on whether the embedded point is an arrowhead or not . It is not near the length of the other two points. I have used similar sized steel points with a long bow and arrow and would expect similar or better penetration . The angle of the embedded point indicates that it was launched from above or in a high arc , I suppose bow or atlatl could have done either .

Do think this hit on the animal brought it down or slowed it any ?

I inferred no negativity from any posts and hope none was implied in mine .

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27017
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: ruffcountry]
#198110 - 30/12/11 09:09 AM

I'm a long bow shooter too and with the meager experience I have, I think to embed that point in the bone like that, would have required something at least equal to or in excess of my heaviest long bow, which was 82 pounds draw weight at my 28" draw.

I'm sure that one had a lot of shaft weight and good speed behind it, not just a willow, dogwood or reed shaft.

I'm also quite sure it is a dart point - but all that is conjecture at this point. Perhaps it was a stone pointed arrow shot from a captured military musket by an indian? That is also a possibility.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kamilaroi
.400 member

Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: DarylS]
#198111 - 30/12/11 09:21 AM

If you can determine which of the vertebrae is is then it's effect would be better determined.

Addendum: If the head had breached the spinal cavity there would have been leakage of cerebrospinal fluid leading to immobilisation.

Edited by kamilaroi (30/12/11 11:44 AM)

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aromakr
.375 member

Reged: 20/04/11
Posts: 849
Loc: Hamilton, Montana

Re: Arrowhead [Re: kamilaroi]
#198115 - 30/12/11 11:00 AM

A good friend of mine in Iowa, that used to live here in the Bitteroot Valley has a piece of Bison Skull found somewhere around here, with a point very similar to that one, has been verified as an atlatl point and is prehistoric. I still think your best bet is having a Zoology or anthropology professor and some University look at it, We can sit here and speculate all day long and nothing positive will come of it. The University of North Dakota I understand has a great department and might be able to give you some idea from good photographs. You might even email them to a number of different schools and get a bunch of opinions.
Bob

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39902
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: ruffcountry]
#198127 - 30/12/11 02:29 PM

Quote:

I had a reply all typed up but it timed me out and I lost it .

Use the back button and the typed text should be recovered. Copy and paste the reply (just in case) to say notepad, hit refresh. Your post should still be there, if not, use the saved copy on notepad. After the refresh, the post should now be current and can be posted OK.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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ruffcountry
.300 member

Reged: 06/01/09
Posts: 210
Loc: usa

Re: Arrowhead [Re: NitroX]
#198188 - 31/12/11 11:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I had a reply all typed up but it timed me out and I lost it .

Use the back button and the typed text should be recovered. Copy and paste the reply (just in case) to say notepad, hit refresh. Your post should still be there, if not, use the saved copy on notepad. After the refresh, the post should now be current and can be posted OK.

I've not been able to recover the text via back button . Are you saying to use back and then refresh ?. Sometimes but not always I remember to save to notepad just in case .Maybe , I just need to learn to type faster .

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Double Rifle Shooters Society

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39902
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: ruffcountry]
#198208 - 31/12/11 04:31 PM

Yes, when it says timed out, hit BACK, save the text, just in case, then hit REFRESH. If the text is still there, you can now post.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mikeh416Rigby
.450 member

Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....

Re: Arrowhead [Re: ruffcountry]
#198355 - 01/01/12 07:52 PM

What a wonderful keepsake!

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TomN
.300 member

Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington

Re: Arrowhead [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
#198669 - 04/01/12 01:34 PM

Doin't underestamate the power of the early bows not all were weak. Last plains bow I made was 43" tip to tip and drew 70 pounds at 23" it was made of vinemaple and had 3 layers of sinew on the back It would put a 24" arrow out at 175 feet per second the arrow whigh was in the 350 grains area some more and some less as I was using wild rose for shafts and they were on the light side. The arrow points I make now are made of naveculite (spelled wrong) as they are very strong and add a little more whight then glass points. They did make some small points for hunting as they had to go a long way to get rock and used all that they could. The point was just to get the arrow into the body and cut and a small point would usely go deeper into the deer or elk or what ever was being shot at the time. TomN

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27017
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Arrowhead [Re: TomN]
#198712 - 05/01/12 04:28 AM

Taylor, my brother and I have been making bows for many years now as well, Tom. He likes sinue backed Western Indian bows as well, while I prefer the more stable, more powerful longer Eastern and European types typified by the Cherokee flat and "D" sectioned Hickory and Maple bows.

Novaculite (form of Chert). I use rifle flints made from it for my flint lock rifles and smoothbore. As with flint, it produces a concoidal fracture. This makes it an exceptionally sharp and strong point. The White Novaculite I use for rifle flints is stronger than the black English Brandon Flints.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
.300 member

Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington

Re: Arrowhead [Re: DarylS]
#198942 - 08/01/12 06:00 AM

Daryl S

Have you taken any game with your hand made bows and arrows? I haven't as yet but have tryed just hasn't happened as yet.

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