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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Slow twist barrels
      #197736 - 24/12/11 06:59 PM

I'm trying to talk our local barrel maker into building a cutter to do slow twist 12 bore barrels suitable for round ball use. Can I get a show of hands who would be interested in the future of course. He likes to use 4150 steel so modern smokeless pressure ok. Im thinking a 1-100 gain twist but please pass your ideas along.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: Smoke73]
      #197744 - 24/12/11 10:19 PM

I had a 12 bore double rifle with approximately 1:54 twist. Rather fast, but it shot round balls just fine. From what I've read, this would seem to be the faster limit for twist.

Here's the rifle I'm referring to. A very classic English double of the 1880's:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=53491&an=0&page=3#Post53491

I believe I would encourage something a bit faster than 1:100 to have the option of shooting conicals.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Birdhunter50
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: Smoke73]
      #197750 - 25/12/11 12:14 AM

I would think that a 1 in 70 twist would be about right. I might be interested in a pair of them if the price is not too high. Bob

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DarylS
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #197769 - 25/12/11 06:46 AM

30 years ago, I wanted a 104" twist, as per Forsyth. Today, I've modified that desire to 80" which, with .007" or .008" rifling depth and narrow lands with wide grooves, will handle perfectly.

I think going too slow is a mistake as it then takes a LOT of powder (recoil) or speed to get decent accuracy. Of course, smokeless powder drops recoil while increasing velocity.

If made for a single shot, it's nice to be able to load down for plinking and still get good accuracy with an easy shooting load. Having to go full tilt all the time wears on my old bones and joints. A slightly faster twist than 100 will allow this. I'm concerned the 100" twist will require over 1,500fps for favourable accuracy. By that I'm talking 2" to 3" max. at 100 yards. It should do better than 2", BTW.

I'm intersted in such a barrel.

Any word on design - dimensions?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #197772 - 25/12/11 08:42 AM

Twist is totally up for discussion at this point. I have no firm opinion other than the twist should be most suitable to roundball and yet versatile so as to suit a wide range of uses.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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DarylS
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: Smoke73]
      #197774 - 25/12/11 08:48 AM

Lets keep it to this thread, not two. Smoke, you should be able to delete your other thread on this subject.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
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Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #197842 - 26/12/11 12:37 PM

+1 on the 80" or so twist.
A conical load not much longer than a rb can have a great deal of mass so no need to go faster. This twist should probably also stabilize practically any full bore slug on the market over the extent of its useful range.

Brass cases or plastic?

I don't remember the discussion on this board before, but I had the barrel maker cut the groove diameter about the same as the inside dimeter of a hull. Gave me the ability to have a relatively tight fit and take full use of the rifling that was around.005 per side.

Merry Christmas, happy holidays

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny


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tinker
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: Tom_H]
      #197843 - 26/12/11 01:04 PM

Definitely good to budget on plastic cases.
Plenty of room for big charges and proper wad columns, and the world is filthy with them.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CowboyCS
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Reged: 05/10/07
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: tinker]
      #197847 - 26/12/11 02:01 PM

You can get cut rifled barrels in a 12 bore in any twist you want from Oregon Barrel Works... Joe Williams does excellent work and usually can deliver in about 3 Months. I don't think he does gain twist but for round ball that's really not that big of a deal, IMHO.

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing


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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: CowboyCS]
      #197858 - 26/12/11 11:22 PM

I have a pair of 12 bore barrels Joe made for a canceled project if anyone is interested.They are set up for short conical/rb.

Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com


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DarylS
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: bouldersmith]
      #197868 - 27/12/11 05:38 AM

Steve - what is the twist and breech/muzzle dimensions of those barrels, Please? I understand they are round at this time.

Colin, does Joe make tapered octagonal or octagonal/round, or merely round barrels?

I tried to find a web site, to no avail unless I wanted oak barrels.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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bouldersmith
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #197891 - 27/12/11 10:04 AM

Daryl,
they are 1.250" in diameter front and rear with a twist of 1 in 60" and are 28" long.

--------------------
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CowboyCS
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #197896 - 27/12/11 12:17 PM

Quote:

Steve - what is the twist and breech/muzzle dimensions of those barrels, Please? I understand they are round at this time.

Colin, does Joe make tapered octagonal or octagonal/round, or merely round barrels?

I tried to find a web site, to no avail unless I wanted oak barrels.




Joe does tapered Oct, straight Oct, Oct to round and unturned blanks...

www.thegunworks.com/
On the left there is a tab "Custom Gun Building Parts" Then Click on "Barrels" Then there is a list of Oregon Barrel Works Barrels to choose from, if you don't see exactly what you are looking for give him a call and talk to him. His barrels are cut rifling on a sine bar so he can do about anything...I do know that he has a couple of limitations, nothing bigger than 2" OD and nothing longer than 35". He can cut the rifling as shallow or as deep as you want and in about any twist you want. I usually buy unturned blanks from him but I know he has the equipment to profile a barrel.

Hope that helps,

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: CowboyCS]
      #197954 - 28/12/11 05:32 AM

TKS Colin - I've book marked the site.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #198765 - 06/01/12 05:06 AM

At this time, I am intersted in those 4150 barrels of bore size for either lining a 12 or 10 bore - maybe or for aking up a muzzleloading double rifle.

The .006" to .008" max rifling depth with 80" twist and very narrow lands would be perfect.

The shallow rifling and narrow lands is of much importance when considering hardened balls in a muzzleloader.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dphariss
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Reged: 18/04/06
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Loc: Montana
Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: CowboyCS]
      #198775 - 06/01/12 06:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Steve - what is the twist and breech/muzzle dimensions of those barrels, Please? I understand they are round at this time.

Colin, does Joe make tapered octagonal or octagonal/round, or merely round barrels?

I tried to find a web site, to no avail unless I wanted oak barrels.




Joe does tapered Oct, straight Oct, Oct to round and unturned blanks...

www.thegunworks.com/
On the left there is a tab "Custom Gun Building Parts" Then Click on "Barrels" Then there is a list of Oregon Barrel Works Barrels to choose from, if you don't see exactly what you are looking for give him a call and talk to him. His barrels are cut rifling on a sine bar so he can do about anything...I do know that he has a couple of limitations, nothing bigger than 2" OD and nothing longer than 35". He can cut the rifling as shallow or as deep as you want and in about any twist you want. I usually buy unturned blanks from him but I know he has the equipment to profile a barrel.

Hope that helps,

Colin




But he uses leaded screw stock, 12L14. Not gun barrel steel.
At least when I talked to him a few years ago.

Dan


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Dphariss
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: Dphariss]
      #198779 - 06/01/12 06:55 AM

12 bore rifles:
Getting useable plains game/Forsythe velocity with a ball this big is going to make a lot of recoil in a hunting weight rifle. Forsythe's rifle used a "#15 ball".
12 to the pound ball weighs 580 gr and is .730 in diameter so. A .720 ball will weigh 560 grains this is 30%+- heavier than a .662 ball (16 to the pound). It will require more powder, probably 30% more to make the same velocity a 16 bore will.
I have a 80" twist flintlock rifle that uses a .662 ball and a heavy patch. It makes about 1600 with 140 gr of FF Swiss.
It weighs about 10 pounds and makes all the recoil I care to have. It shoots flat enough to about 120 yards.
Its also nice to have a bore size that will take a ball that is readily available. I have a tanner in .673 but its a bigger pain to use than a Lyman mould.
Dan


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DarylS
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: Dphariss]
      #198794 - 06/01/12 11:18 AM

Like Dan, I already have a bore calibre rifle for large game. Mine is a cap-lock single shot .69 cal. = tight 14 bore in which I use a .684" pure lead ball or 15 bore .677", WW ball. I tried the larger .684" mould (similar to Lyman in design) in WW but unless in paper ctgs. they cannot be loaded as a thick patch is required to seal the .012" rifling, for accuracy and clean shooting.
The rifling is .012" deep and the rate of twist is 66".

This rifle is exceptionally accurate MOA at 100yards and holds that accuracy all the way from 140gr. 2f all the way up to 200gr. of 2F, delivering 1,700fps with that charge. My best 200yard group off a hand rest on a bag while sitting at a table, was a rectangle 1 1/4" wide X 3 1/2" tall for 6 shots. There was no wind.

The recoil of heavier charges as in 180 to 200gr. charges was WAY to much for me so I settled on 1,500fps with 165gr.2F as being usable and that's my moose load. It staggers them with mere centre rib hits. Such a hit with a WW ball will make a 3" round hole though both lungs on a moose. They then dump all their blood, almost instantly. Death is very fast. I'm sure the slightly smaller 16 bore ball will do just as well and will kick somewhat less, having a lighter ball and slightly ligther charge for even flatter shooting.

My concern about modern Forsyth-type barrles is that if the twist is made too slow, the charge required to get good accuracy might be too high for me and many others to shoot. I'm getting too old (old injuries haunt me) for the heavy thumpers.

I'd like a 16 bore barrel, 80" twist and shallow rifling is good, (I would like .006" or .007") to replace my 14 bore barrel right off the bat. I'd like to hold the rifle's weight at 9 1/2 pounds or a bit more, so 1 1/8" tapered to 1" over 32" would be about perfect - octagonal, of course, or round octagonal with wedding bands. That way, the 'old' underrib and breech will fit perfectly.

My 15 bore mould for WW balls is a Tanner, without a sprue cutter. I use the plyers-type wire stripper with little cuttouts to cut and then twist off the sprues that are attached to each ball. Every now and then, a quick swipe of a rasp is needed to fully round the ball. Generally they are perect as snipped/twisted. I tried using side cutters, but prefer the wire strippers by a long shot.

What I really appreciate about the tanner mould cast balls, is the absense of a sprue so orientation of the ball is not necessary.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CowboyCS
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Reged: 05/10/07
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: Dphariss]
      #198804 - 06/01/12 01:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Steve - what is the twist and breech/muzzle dimensions of those barrels, Please? I understand they are round at this time.

Colin, does Joe make tapered octagonal or octagonal/round, or merely round barrels?

I tried to find a web site, to no avail unless I wanted oak barrels.




Joe does tapered Oct, straight Oct, Oct to round and unturned blanks...

www.thegunworks.com/
On the left there is a tab "Custom Gun Building Parts" Then Click on "Barrels" Then there is a list of Oregon Barrel Works Barrels to choose from, if you don't see exactly what you are looking for give him a call and talk to him. His barrels are cut rifling on a sine bar so he can do about anything...I do know that he has a couple of limitations, nothing bigger than 2" OD and nothing longer than 35". He can cut the rifling as shallow or as deep as you want and in about any twist you want. I usually buy unturned blanks from him but I know he has the equipment to profile a barrel.

Hope that helps,

Colin




But he uses leaded screw stock, 12L14. Not gun barrel steel.
At least when I talked to him a few years ago.

Dan




If you want them in 4140 barrel steel, just call and ask him, depending on the O.D. size of the barrel he sometimes has to order it(he doesn't keep a lot in stock), they are as good as any modern barrel made.

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing


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Dphariss
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Reged: 18/04/06
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: CowboyCS]
      #198833 - 07/01/12 02:27 AM

Unless he is buying from another barrel maker its not possible to order small quantities of GB quality steel.
This is why so many small ML barrel makers use mill run steel.
Mill run, leaded 4140 (41L40) is little if any better than 12L14 for example.
Making certified high quality steel is far different than making mill run steel. High quality steel cannot be ordered in small lots since its made in furnace melt lots and sold that way. Small makers have to pool orders to get enough tonnage to make up a melt.
This from conversations with barrel makers and from my time a Shiloh.

Dan


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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: Dphariss]
      #198835 - 07/01/12 02:49 AM

Quote:

Unless he is buying from another barrel maker its not possible to order small quantities of GB quality steel.
This is why so many small ML barrel makers use mill run steel.
Mill run, leaded 4140 (41L40) is little if any better than 12L14 for example.
Making certified high quality steel is far different than making mill run steel. High quality steel cannot be ordered in small lots since its made in furnace melt lots and sold that way. Small makers have to pool orders to get enough tonnage to make up a melt.
This from conversations with barrel makers and from my time a Shiloh.

Dan




This is my understanding as well. Our barrel makers here pool there orders to get the stuff they like. They use 4140 when they run out but try not too. There are however thousands of barrels built of 4140 that hold up and shoot well. No awnser yet on the 12 bore barrels.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Loc: Northeast US
Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: Smoke73]
      #199089 - 10/01/12 01:01 PM

I am interested as well
JAZ


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Slow twist barrels [Re: jaz]
      #199139 - 11/01/12 05:53 AM

4140 is a normal modern barrel & action steel used by virtually all the gun manufacturers today. A few barrel makers have gone to 4150. Right or wrong, that is how I understand the barrel steel situation.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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