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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Smoke73]
      #193015 - 04/11/11 04:48 PM

Well we are going to use expanded Lee slugs in the short
brass to have powder room to get the speed the
short brass guys want. That is why I like long cases
as you have more choices like the US-S, regular
sabots, as wel las Lee and Dixie. etc.

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed







--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #193353 - 08/11/11 04:25 PM

Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
if ever available..

3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed







--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #194213 - 20/11/11 03:36 PM

Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.

Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed







--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #195279 - 29/11/11 05:32 PM

First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed







--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #195702 - 04/12/11 02:59 PM

Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
magnum primers.

A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially
for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
Mag primer about a foot of flame.

Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #195705 - 04/12/11 04:17 PM

^the FB is a Field's patent action.

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: kamilaroi]
      #196742 - 14/12/11 07:32 PM

We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs.

And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back
and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #197431 - 21/12/11 05:57 PM

A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front.
Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders.ED





--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #197994 - 29/12/11 04:19 AM

Here is picture of 4 long cases of
RIP's on the AR forum.
Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga
getting these and lengthening chambers
allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also.
Some factory guns are 3.5"

Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
Chambered for these you can use
3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are
3.5" from the factory.

3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass.
Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.




Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.You can
see one of those slugs in the picture.




Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5"
plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF and
the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore.

In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with
locked on base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also.
It is great to see a smooth bore slug like the US-S
that is as accurate as most fullbore slugs from
rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon
from European Cartridge.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1652
Loc: Australia
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #198162 - 30/12/11 11:48 PM

Neat! Keep it coming, sir!
How are the 2 bore projects coming along?

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Ash]
      #198744 - 05/01/12 07:06 PM

Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
pictured have the locked on base that their
other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
for doing slugs like these.Ed





--------------------
Ed Hubel

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #198808 - 06/01/12 01:32 PM

Nice work Ed!

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gryphon
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: 500grains]
      #198812 - 06/01/12 02:31 PM

A keen man at the bench,many hours spent there too Ed by the looks of all your work.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: gryphon]
      #199150 - 11/01/12 11:54 AM

This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.
I show this to promote the use and testing of smooth
bores for accuracy with right slugs as opposed to
to neglecting the possibilities they have.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.









--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (11/01/12 12:03 PM)

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #199439 - 14/01/12 04:48 PM

Shot off some .715 patched round balls loaded ahead of 80 grains of imr4759 today. Balls weigh in at 525 grains. No chrono available right now. Any guess at what velocity these would be traveling at the muzzle Ed? By the way this is a very nice shooting load.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Smoke73]
      #199468 - 15/01/12 05:33 AM

What primer, Smoke? What wadding did you use?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #199511 - 15/01/12 04:50 PM

Cheddite hull and primer, trap wad trimmed down and a lubed hard card wad. Lots of compression with a roll crimp.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: Smoke73]
      #199884 - 18/01/12 04:16 PM

You should have 1700 depending on barrel length.
You can go up to about 95 gr with that weight
of slug/ball. Could you mike a new unfired case
just above the rim, and measure a fired one.
We use that as idicator of how high you can go.

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.



Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.



Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #199935 - 19/01/12 02:40 AM

I did some brief testing with nylon and lexan saboted .30 cal bullets in my .458 - years ago. I went up to about 3,600fps with a 150gr., but accuracy was almost ruin chornograph each shot deal. The idea has merrit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #199987 - 19/01/12 06:16 PM

I think there is a balance between sabot
thickness and bullet diameter, when
putting them out high speeds,in rifled.
What I mean is I think in your 458 example the
sabot should have thinner sides with say a
375 cal bullet.That is why I am going to see
where I can find 12ga sabots taking 58cal bullets
or maybe 620 cal.I have pictures on soon of
this idea. I think for high speeds there is
such a thing as to much plastic.Ed

--------------------
Ed Hubel

Edited by hubel458 (19/01/12 06:19 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #200058 - 20/01/12 07:51 AM

I agree - the 'sabot' has limits, but of course, the limits are closely tied with the material being used. The harder the sabot material is, the thicker it can be, I'm sure.

In the .458 scenario, they were making 4,000fps with 220gr. RN bullets. The whole idea (I assume) was to break 4,000fps with a .458 WinMag. using a reasonably heavy bullet. I doubt that bullet held together for very long, but hard to say. Barnes TSX are available in 250gr., but I suspect the friction would be too high, to get much over 3,000fps with them.

A still like shooting bore size, or almost bore size in a shotgun, rifled or smooth.

I freely admit the sabots might have some military applications, for sure - a 12 or 10 bore platform makes for a LOT of diversity in projectiles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: DarylS]
      #200119 - 20/01/12 03:46 PM

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.



Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.



Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
or in sabots if we can find some.ED



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #200665 - 26/01/12 01:09 PM

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types.

First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
tight, into the base.



Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
3.5" RMC cases.



Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
I wish the BPI was full size like the others
and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........



Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed




--------------------
Ed Hubel

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hubel458
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Reged: 13/02/04
Posts: 649
Loc: Brinton,MI-USA
Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #201646 - 04/02/12 11:49 AM

Some more slug setups and ideas.

First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
Shown with BPI powder cup seals.





2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
With corresponding length cases they were designed for.





3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.





4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.



--------------------
Ed Hubel

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DarylS
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Re: 12GA From Hell [Re: hubel458]
      #201651 - 04/02/12 12:41 PM

WOW Ed - sure bringing a lot to the table to stimulate and get the productive juices & hopefully testing juices as well.

I'm having a bit of a health deal right now, hard to deal with other stuff - been going on for a while, but things are comming to gether, slowly. (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.)

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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