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Sarg
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Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ?
      #196630 - 13/12/11 10:58 PM

Bit of a query here guys , I'm getting a couple of RB moulds made up , one for my 12bore & one for a project 8bore , what is the normal or preferred amount over the groove size , I have read from .002 to .005 , just thought I would check with the guys in the know ?

I don't have the 12 bore measurements to check , but from my records it was .734 , I had a mould made at .737 which throws a .736 ball in WW & that ball only just gets marked by the rifling (semi invisible rifling , sort of) when pushed through the barrels , so I want a larger ball .

8 Bore is .830 Bore & .845 Groove , a plastic Winchester industrial shell can take up to .850 ball with out stretching/bugling the case & is still within chamber specs .

Any opinions would help ?

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CommandCar
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: Sarg]
      #196988 - 17/12/11 02:06 PM

Sarg,

I can probabally provide some insite. Can you provide more information on what you have? Ball & Shot?, Bore rifle, who are the makers? are they hammer, boxlock, or sidelock? etc? What are the twist rates and rifling types? Is there any dram or bullet weight data on the flats, rib or barrel? What do the guns weigh?

The more specific you are, the more I can help if you need it.

In the eight you could probabally get away with a pure lead bullet between .835 and .840 as they will bump up to fill the groves upon firing. But let's hear what you have...

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gatsby
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: Sarg]
      #196997 - 17/12/11 03:40 PM

.003 to .005 over groove diameter seems to the rule on round ball.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gatsby
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: Sarg]
      #196999 - 17/12/11 03:44 PM

With a conical if you are having the mold made go .005 over groove diameter or larger and size down.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Sarg
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: CommandCar]
      #197030 - 17/12/11 11:54 PM

Well I've posted all the details on the 12 Bore before , but to summarize the 12 bore is a top lever hammerless by Tolley 1896 , 3in most likely a 9Dram rifle , but no load data on the rifle , 1 in 80in twist , 24in barrels , 100 yard standing sight folding to 300 , almost 15lbs & semi visible rifling , actually the rifling is more than that it is rounded with sharp lands !

I have been shooting near 600Gr round balls at high 1900 to 2000 fps to try & get the barrels together , but still shoots 2in apart at 50yards , barrel groups are in the same hole most times , with the right load & I don't mess it up !

The 8 Bore is not put together yet , but will be a round ball rifle to at around 10 Dram level using nitro loads how ever & in plastic industrial cases for now , sized to 8 bore spec , twist is 1 in 100 , barrels will be 24in long.

I think I know now to make the moulds .005 over groove , but I suppose I need the ball round still after leaving the bore for aerodynamics ?

Thank you for the help .

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CommandCar
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: Sarg]
      #197075 - 18/12/11 04:50 AM

Based upon twist and weight I'd guess your Tolley is a conical bullet gun. Have you tried 750-800 grain conicals?

You say your round balls are gouping 2" apart at 50 yards. What happens at 100 yards? Assuming you have unaltered original sights, are the impacts high or low vs POA? Does relative accuracy of the barrels hold out? How far apart are the balls at that distance. I think you will find out what is really going on if you quickly move up to 100 yards for testing.

I'd go with Gatsby's suggestion for the 8 with wheel weight balls. You may find that undersized (.015 under) pure lead balls group better. I would not worry about aerodynamics of the round ball, we already know they stink.

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DarylS
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: CommandCar]
      #197076 - 18/12/11 04:58 AM

Quote:

Based upon twist and weight I'd guess your Tolley is a conical bullet gun. Have you tried 750-800 grain conicals?

You say your round balls are gouping 2" apart at 50 yards. What happens at 100 yards? Assuming you have unaltered original sights, are the impacts high or low vs POA? Does relative accuracy of the barrels hold out? How far apart are the balls at that distance. I think you will find out what is really going on if you quickly move up to 100 yards for testing.

I'd go with Gatsby's suggestion for the 8 with wheel weight balls. You may find that undersized (.015 under) pure lead balls group better. I would not worry about aerodynamics of the round ball, we already know they stink.



My questions as well. Elevation is very important - and where the barrels print horizontally at 100, etc.

The 12 bore round balls are very close with group centres only 2" apart at 50 yards so a slighlty lighter, or slightly heavier projectile might be needed. Lighter is easier and cheaper to test first as diffeerent ball sizes should be readily available from guys involved in reinacting groups. .690", .715" and .735" are nominal sizes of moulds easily available form Lee and Lyman, with any size available from Tanner in England - about 7 day shipping to the States and Canada for about $35.00 US.

At 2" apart- is that crossing, or diverging? If diverging, they're probably diverging only 1/2" at 50, therefore only an inch at 100" from parallel? Aren't the bore axis's about 1 3/8" to 1 1/2" apart? So parallel groups would have 1 1/2" between group centres? Just a thought. 2" sounds very close if diverging. If crossing, well, that's different.

Daryl

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (18/12/11 05:02 AM)

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Sarg
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: CommandCar]
      #197123 - 18/12/11 12:32 PM

Thank you for the reply guys .

I have only just recently learnt how to load a shell the correct way & with a load close to what the rifle needs , I have tried Lighter/smaller balls with much the same results , I have only been working at 50yards as I'm still testing to get a idea of what is going on.

I did forget 2 things , with the front sight it came with (original I think) the rifle shot high at 50 yards , if I remember correctly 12in or so , maybe more & the bead was tiny like a rabbit rifle bead LoL !

On those groups in reality I suppose they are 3-4in apart from the centres & diverging , but I'm still trying to get the load & shoot through a crony , also I had no idea how to load the 12Bore case , most of that I have come to grips with now , with the help of some on this forum , Daryl has helped me immensely on this !

Gatsby has helped to & he was sending some larger bullets from his moulds , which I feel would have found the answer , as I cant afford to get a whole heap of moulds that do not work & I know a round ball at those speeds will kill any thing I want , so I just went down the round ball track !

"I would not worry about aerodynamics of the round ball, we already know they stink."

I meant to keep the ball more spherical so the ball can do what ever makes a ball work so well ?

If that is not a problem I will just get 2 moulds made up that are .005 over & call it good for now ?

Later I will try a larger/heavier bullet in the 12Bore Tolley to match his weight .

Oh , I thought 1 in 100in is more of a RB twist ?

My Bad here , got the 12Bore mixed up with the 8 Bore , 12 is 1 in 80in

Added pic of shots at 50yards & large rock at 80+ yards




Edited by CptCurl (23/12/11 11:28 PM)

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gatsby
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: Sarg]
      #197130 - 18/12/11 01:34 PM

I can still send some and I have more molds now. How many and as cast? Do you have an idea of your groove diameter? I am not busy right now so you have caught me at a good time. They will average about 2oz per bullet for shipping. I cast mostly 20-1 foundry alloy but have lino and ww.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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CommandCar
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: Sarg]
      #197134 - 18/12/11 03:31 PM

Quote:

Well I've posted all the details on the 12 Bore before , but to summarize the 12 bore is a top lever hammerless by Tolley 1896 , 3in most likely a 9Dram rifle , but no load data on the rifle , 1 in 80in twist , 24in barrels , 100 yard standing sight folding to 300 , almost 15lbs & semi visible rifling , actually the rifling is more than that it is rounded with sharp lands !



Is the twist 1 in 100 or 1 in 80 as above? There are no absolutes, but at almost 15 lbs and a twist faster than 1 in 100 or 120, we are leaning to the conical end of the spectrum according to my research. These guns were built to a weight to handle a given recoil level. 15 lbs is on the high side, so I would expect it was made for heavier slugs. For example, a 12 bore rifle with a 1 in 60" twist weighing 15 lbs would be a conical configuration.

Nice groups, since your sights start at 100 yards, I would conduct most of my testing at that distance. 50 yards should be childs play once you have the right combination, but if you find an average or even poor combination that works at 50, 100 yards will often disapoint. I, personally, do not like to be teased...

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gatsby
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: CommandCar]
      #197143 - 18/12/11 04:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well I've posted all the details on the 12 Bore before , but to summarize the 12 bore is a top lever hammerless by Tolley 1896 , 3in most likely a 9Dram rifle , but no load data on the rifle , 1 in 80in twist , 24in barrels , 100 yard standing sight folding to 300 , almost 15lbs & semi visible rifling , actually the rifling is more than that it is rounded with sharp lands !



Is the twist 1 in 100 or 1 in 80 as above? There are no absolutes, but at almost 15 lbs and a twist faster than 1 in 100 or 120, we are leaning to the conical end of the spectrum according to my research. These guns were built to a weight to handle a given recoil level. 15 lbs is on the high side, so I would expect it was made for heavier slugs. For example, a 12 bore rifle with a 1 in 60" twist weighing 15 lbs would be a conical configuration.

Nice groups, since your sights start at 100 yards, I would conduct most of my testing at that distance. 50 yards should be childs play once you have the right combination, but if you find an average or even poor combination that works at 50, 100 yards will often disapoint. I, personally, do not like to be teased...



I will try and verify the twist rate in my Holland 12b rifle but as far as muzzle loading goes 1/32 is a conical twist and 1/72 for round ball. I think I have that right maybe Darrel can shed some light on the subject.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Sarg
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: CommandCar]
      #197159 - 18/12/11 07:13 PM

Sorry my mix up on the twist , 12Bore is 1 in 80in !

I was told that twist & 100yd standing meant fast lighter RB , dont forget when I started this I couldn't find any thing on a 12bore more than 7Dram-13lbs & had no idea even how to assemble a 12 Bore rifle load , heck I started a 25yds just to see where the Hell things were going , as I had no consistency , because I had no consistency in my loading !

My Tolley is in another country right now , so I cant do any more load work till I get back to it .

When I had a load that worked , then I would for sure test at 100yds , when your flying blind you need to cut down on the variables , I had no idea on any thing , powder-wads-shells-ball size- velocity or how to put them together , only from these forums (some books to) & the good folk on here have I come this far .

Having said that I to believe a heavier bullet is what is needed to get things right , that & a test with Black powder may be ?

I have found a couple of photos on the net of rifling similar to my rifle , but mine is sharper on the Lands .





Edited by CptCurl (23/12/11 11:29 PM)

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: Sarg]
      #197216 - 19/12/11 01:49 AM

I've gotta know where that pinfire rifle photo came from.


:^)



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gatsby
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: tinker]
      #197248 - 19/12/11 01:58 PM

Tinker,
Sarg had his Tolley 12 bore posted but I can't find it now, maybe posted 2 or 3 years old. It is a beautiful gun.

Sarg
I checked the twist on my Holland 12 bore and it has a similar twist 1/60 or a tad slower. Records show it was to be used with ball or conical. The sites are a single fixed 50yd 6 or 7 dram 13lb. So you need bore and groove measurements. What is your 12 doing "out of the country"?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: gatsby]
      #197262 - 19/12/11 03:53 PM

I do not have one of these double barreled 12 bore or 8 bore guns - but - I would still call an 80" twist in 12 bore, to be a round ball twist.

There are guys here with cape rifles and rifled doubles in 12 bore made for slugs that must know their twist rates.

I know for a fact, that back in the 1850/60's many English makers even thought that 36" in a 12 or 13 bores, was a round ball twist. Of course, we know today, that is ridiculous. Seems in 10 to 20 years the makers became more enlightened, and started making slower twists for round ball guns. Forsyth was a prime instumentalist if this 'move' along with the few makers he'd been able to 'get through to' wo actually slowed down their twists as early as 1850. Most did not.

I'd love to have a modern ML gun for round ball at 80" twist in 12 bore - a double would be even better.

My own 14 bore Ml rifle routinely makes 1" to 1 1/2" groups of 5 at 100 meters and recently a 1 1/4" group X 3 1/2" at 200 seated rest shooting for 6 shots. Granted, it's a .69 single shot, but that's with round balls, a 66" twist and 6 drams of powder. The loads show that the twist is connnected to the accuracy. I have a hard time thinking of an 80" twist as being for a slug. 30" to 60" yes - short conical, minie type (poor for hunting).

BTW - those rifling photo's are wonderful. A reloader's dream come true.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: tinker]
      #197278 - 19/12/11 05:44 PM

Great replies guys , I was only after the mould size as I was going to order a cheap mould from the chap in the UK for my 8 Bore project & thought I may as well get the right size 12bore one to .

I found some info in my old posts on the Tolley http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....=true#Post96556
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post127914, seems at the time I got .722 Bore & .735 Groove , but the .736 balls are a little small when pushed through the bores , I have been unable to capture a fired ball in good condition .

Tinker , those pic's are in my files some where , one is a 10bore & one is a 8Bore I think , look very much like the Tolleys rifling .

Have you checked your email lately I sent you a request did you get it ?

Gatsby yes I sure would love some slugs to try , but I have been waiting for a few years now & just turned to RB in the interim , I would get a mould made up if I found the right slug .

I got a few hundred 45Cal slugs a while back from the States & it only cost $30 if I remember Correctly , in one of those Flat Rate Boxes , it was very heavy !

I'm out of the country , the rifle is still at home , waiting I hope LoL !

Edited by Sarg (19/12/11 05:54 PM)

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CommandCar
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: Sarg]
      #197338 - 20/12/11 02:23 PM

Sarg,

If your impacts are above the (original) sights POA and apart (right barrel shooting right, left shooting left), In general, with a bore rifle, you need to slow things down a bit or go to lighter slugs. You are getting too much recoil assuming you are holding the rifle correctly. There is tons of convergence built into bore rifles, especially the 8 & ups, so they behave slightly differently from the nitros. You probabally know this, but thought I'd throw it out there.

How was accuracy as you worked up from lower velocities?

Again, I urge you to spend most of your time at 100 yards, that is the first sight and you will learn the most.

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: CommandCar]
      #197339 - 20/12/11 02:51 PM

That Tolley is such a cool rifle, in every way!

Yes Sarg, I just got to my mails this weekend. Been buried in work.
Sent you a holiday treat today too!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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CommandCar
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: Sarg]
      #197367 - 21/12/11 04:53 AM

Just a thought, is there a way to use the regulated sights, 100, 200, 300, to calculate the trajectory and back track to the original muzzle velocity?

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DarylS
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: CommandCar]
      #197369 - 21/12/11 05:03 AM

Quote:

Just a thought, is there a way to use the regulated sights, 100, 200, 300, to calculate the trajectory and back track to the original muzzle velocity?



Yes - but that mathematics is well beyond me (most is).
The distance between sights & their elevation above the centre of the bores gives the elevation change from leaf to leaf, range to range. This can then be applied to a computer program if the ballistic coefficient of the projectile is known. A .735" pure lead round ball has a BC of .104. That's the only one I have. Then working backwards with the program, you can then figure velocity from the elvation needed for given ranges.

Might be simpler than that - I just don't know- but the above makes sense to me.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: DarylS]
      #197370 - 21/12/11 05:29 AM

After re-reading much of this, I'm positive that Command Car's suggestion is spot on - slowing them down might being them together, perfectly. Reduction in charge is replaced with light weight wadding to maintain the slightly compressed load, so the powder burns correctly.

At the original gun was a BP gun and it would have been regulated that way, slowing it down to around 1,800fps should bring the barrels together. I think you might even have the corect ball size. I'd play with those a bit more, first, as you are so close to a correct solution.
Buying expensive moulds at this time, would not be the best use of your spare change. Real BP and lead would be. HA!

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Sarg
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: DarylS]
      #197387 - 21/12/11 12:11 PM

I was thinking the sights could tell us some thing , just don't know how to figure it out .

I'm away from the Tolley for a while more yet , but when I get back to the loading I will try some of the ideas here again & report back , thank you all for the help & ideas !

Tinker your just great , thank you for that , I found on checking my files those bores are the same rifle a 10Bore Pinfire of a member here , who shot a Elephant & other big game with his 8 Bore .

Thank you all again , have a Merry Christmas & New Years !

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CommandCar
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: Sarg]
      #197401 - 21/12/11 12:57 PM

Tinker,

Here you go.

http://www.calpappas.com/

Click on "Double Rifles" and pan down to see the down-the-bore pinfire shot.

Edited by CommandCar (21/12/11 01:17 PM)

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rigbymauser
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: CommandCar]
      #210993 - 17/06/12 06:06 AM


Bringing this interesting thread up again.

I many of you know I have a Rigby Shot & Ball gun which seems to have sqeezebore or chokebored barrels where the barrelwalls seems to have 3 "grooves". The barrel dia starts out with aprox. .743" and ends up in .735. I have tried with Blue dot powder and a .735" roundball. That combination could make anyone make a run after the balls as they came out of the barrels. Some actually landed down on my feet more or less..:LOL

I have a .750" roundball mold actually. Would it be safe to fire softlead balls of that caliber in such a gun taking I use FFg Blackpowder perhaps?. I have thought of ordering a .744" RB mold but just wondered if it were safe enough to fire soft .750" RB in my gun.

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DarylS
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Re: Some Info on ball mould size in 12 & 8 Bore ? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #211043 - 18/06/12 02:08 AM

You could also try a thin (lubed) cloth patching (as in a Muzzleloader) on the undersized soft lead .735" balls.
A beeswax/oil mix or any Black Powder lube would work just fine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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