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davidindallas
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300 H&H as a double round
      #195925 - 06/12/11 07:00 PM

Looking at an Austrian gun in 300H&H o/u configuration. I've not seen this before. It seems a bit high-pressured, though I know people load 375 and even 300 win. mag. Thoughts?

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500Nitro
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: davidindallas]
      #195930 - 06/12/11 07:46 PM


H&H MADE A flanged version of the round for DR's.

Can't remember the exact specs and whether it was slightly lower in velocity but it worked.

.

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davidindallas
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: 500Nitro]
      #195942 - 07/12/11 01:47 AM

Yes. I'm pretty sure this is the belted, rimless variety. In the rimmed, flanged configuration I'd pass for sure. God knows who if anyone loads it.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: 500Nitro]
      #195943 - 07/12/11 01:57 AM

From memory the .375 Flanged was only very marginally lesser in velocity.

One of our members has a .300 Win Mag DR so I would not reject a .300 H&H Mag. A good classic cartridge. Of course a rimmed round is considered better.

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davidindallas
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: NitroX]
      #196008 - 07/12/11 01:53 PM

I absolutely agree that the rimmed round is better suited for applications in a DR, but in this particular caliber I don't know of anyone in the US that loads it. I have seen that Heym currently lists 3oo win. mag. and I've seen beretta and others offering 458. That said, I've heard no shortage of warnings against DRs with rounds (like 416) designed for use in bolt guns and making substantially higher pressures than one would normally associate with ideal DR loads.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: davidindallas]
      #196014 - 07/12/11 02:48 PM

Most of the warnings are from people that advise only using rimmed rounds for better and more reliable extraction.

Same as some insist on a CRF rather than push feed bolt actions.

Of course rimmed and CRF are better choices, but not the only choices.

Ask the guys who have actually owned them, and see what they say. I haven't owned rimless chamberings, except for my .30-06 and not enough experience with that yet. But do rely on the comments of members on here, and usually claim no real problems.

However almost all the reputable gunmakers have been offering magnum and rimless rounds like the .375, .416 and .458 Win Mag in doubles for several decades, and wouldn't if there were a lot of problems.

Up to the buyer of course.

I hope some of members pipe up and give their direct experience and knowledge.





PS Before posting, had a look at the Verney-Carron PDF brochure I had open. Interestingly almost all the chambering they list ARE rimmed. Good to see. It mentions a .375 HH, which might be rimmed or the magnum chambering?

One chambering of interest is the .30 Blaser R, which would be close to the .300 H&H Mag or Rimmed chambering.

If you want a .30 calibre, the .30 Blaser R might be worth looking at too.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: NitroX]
      #196049 - 07/12/11 10:42 PM

I am the owner of a double chambered in .300 Win. Mag. made by Josef Winkler of Ferlach.

In the British crowd that's like saying I have herpes, but the Austrians (of what this rifle is) and the Germans aren't so averse. My rifle consistently shoots 4 shot groups into 1 1/4" at 100 yards and is regulated for 220 grain RN bullets - imagine the possibilities! It has given me no trouble and has been the death of one white tail deer at 265 yards in Virginia and two black bears in British Columbia. It wears a 1.5x - 4x scope.

I am the owner of two doubles chambered in .375 H&H Belted Rimless Magnum. One by Ludwig Borovnik of Ferlach, the other by G. Merkel. Both are best quality rifles. Both function flawlessly. The Borovnik is extremely accurate, on par with the Winkler mentioned above. It wears a 1.25x - 6x Swarovski. I haven't really run the Merkel through its paces.

The "traditionalists" say "no-can-do". They are wrong on that. I consider myself a traditionalist, but I'm not that narrow.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bonanza
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: davidindallas]
      #196075 - 08/12/11 07:31 AM

I used to have a .375 H&H rimless Merkel 141 DR. I found one load using H414 and a 270 grain TSX at 2450 fps that was under about 39K CUP. It shot well and was my goto load.

I very seriously doubt that load would harm any rifle over the long haul.

--------------------


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AkMike
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: bonanza]
      #196086 - 08/12/11 11:34 AM

I picked up a box of Federal 300 H&H 180's for my Winkler. It seemed to do well. One of the locks needs attention so I have only used it as a single shot so far but it hit to the POA the scope was set at from the prior owner

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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500Nitro
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: AkMike]
      #196087 - 08/12/11 11:38 AM


Josef Winkler of Ferlach made some very fine guns.

I know of a couple of 300 H&H Flanged DR's, both Holland Royal's.

Very nice indeed they are.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: bonanza]
      #196180 - 09/12/11 05:55 AM

Quote:

I used to have a .375 H&H rimless Merkel 141 DR. I found one load using H414 and a 270 grain TSX at 2450 fps that was under about 39K CUP. It shot well and was my goto load.

I very seriously doubt that load would harm any rifle over the long haul.



I think you meant a model 140-2 Safari! The 141 is built on the 28 ga size action and the top chambering is 9.3X74R and doesn't come chambered for 375H&H!

On the question of having a belted-rimless cartridge in a double rifle, if the factory made the rifle for that cartridge then is will stand up to the prissures of factory ammo. However rimless cartridges in a double rifle should, IMO, be limited to the hunting of non-dangerous game. There are three things I will not have in a double rifle that is used for dangerous game hunting, and they are:

#1 a rimless, or belted-rimless cartridge!

#2 a single trigger!

#3 an automatic safety (this includes the Blaser's automatic un-cocking of the rifle if opened for any reason)

This has nothing to do with tredition, but with simply not being the best choice for a dangerous game double rifle!

The chamber pressures are not the main reason for the "OFF-FACE" condition of double rifles! That is most often caused by poor care of the rifle's mateing surfaces in cleaning and lubrication!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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doubleriflejack
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: davidindallas]
      #196184 - 09/12/11 06:21 AM

davidindallas, I agree 100% with everything said here by CptCurl. I have a pre WWII Ferlach Austrian made O/U in .270, a pretty intense non rimmed cartridge for double rifles, that has never malfunctioned in any way. I prefer a scope on an O/U, compared to scope on a sxs, so a small scope works beautifully on this rifle. Have used it successfully for deer hunting numerous years. I am a traditionalist too, but this .270 convinced me that such cartridges can be used successfully on double rifles, IF built correctly.

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davidindallas
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #196294 - 10/12/11 03:47 PM

Thanks for the input. I have a nice merkel in 7x57r, game scene engraved etc w/ an extra set of barrels in 16 gauge. Likewise, I have a modern 470 merkel that I'd use of a return trip to Africa for Buffalo or things larger. The 300 H&H on offer is of 50's or 60's vintage w/ skip line checkering, scoped with sideplates and a set 20 gauge shotgun barrels. It seems more likely to be useable for deer and the like here in Texas than my 7x57. The price seems a bit high for a non-dangerous game o/u, in the mid8ks, but I might bite if it could be had for a bit less. It's just the pressue issue that worried me. Franz Sodia is the maker by the way.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: davidindallas]
      #196330 - 11/12/11 01:01 AM

David,

I'm not an expert, nor understand the science of it. But I believe for double rifles, there are two issues. Pressure and back thrust (?). Two cartridges might have similar pressure levels, even if one is a .300 and one a .458. However a big bore will have more back thrust. Which is a factor for the relatively weaker break open DR actions.

Something to bear in mind.

Now if anyone wants to tell me the above is crap with sensible constructive factual argument, go for it. Or explain it better than me.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DarylS
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: NitroX]
      #196369 - 11/12/11 05:31 AM

I am most certanly not an expert either, but I'd like to see some modern testing on backthrust coparrisons of various ctgs. although it probably isn't necessary.

P.O.Ackley's testing years ago is all I've seen & studied and it was quite dramatic in it's findings. Handloading Books #1 and #2 by P.O.Ackley.

All things being equal, from chamber pressure, chamber condition (smoothness), brass condition and chamber lubrication, the case with the most taper produces the most back thrust.

Since the .300H&H and the .458 have identical CIP standards of 62,000PSI, I'd definitely believe that even though slighlty longer overall in case length, the more tapered case would have the most back thrust.

Whereas the .300 H&H has the longer case length, it's wall section (body + neck length) is virtually the same as the .458 Winchester. This makes the chamber wall 'bearing' length of the cases about the same at around 2.4" to 2.5". The sloping neck of the .300H&H is of no use in helping grip the chamber walls, so therefore is actually a detriment, not a help. Thus due to it's taper, the .300 H&H will produce more back thrust - how much more & is this important in this scenario - who knows?

Condition of the barrels is very important in this regards, a dry chamber producing/allowing more holding power at peak pressure and therefore less back thrust than an oiled chamber which allows the ctg. to slide backward more easily. Therefore, if one is dry and the other 'damp' with oil, the roles can easily be reversed.

In this instance, Curl's .300 Win Mag will actually produce less bolt or rearward thrust at the same pressure level than a .300 H&H due to the reduced taper.

When dealing with pressures this high in a DR for use in hot climates, I feel the use of powders that are very little effected by heat is also of vital importance. This is why I always suggest the Hodgdon "Extreme" powders made by ADI in Australia. From hot to cold temps, they hold their pressure and speeds very well in comparrison to the other available powders - even today.

Pressure excursions from heat will increase the potential for a back thrust problem many fold. It isn't just cordite that does this. There are so many variables that effect back thrust, we must 'stack' the deck if possible & an understanding of the forces involved will help us in that regard.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: DarylS]
      #196391 - 11/12/11 11:32 AM

Hi All,

If what Daryl says is correct about the shape, Ackley saw the problem also and gave us a variation, the .300 H&H Magnum AI, here is the link, I hope it may help.

.300 H&H Magnum AI - http://ammoguide.com/?catid=824

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.

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davidindallas
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #196406 - 11/12/11 03:32 PM

Thanks. You're putting reason and science behind my instinctive suspicion of the pressure issues. It's a near gun, and I'm a sucker for two barrel sets, but I think I'll pass.

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DarylS
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: davidindallas]
      #196474 - 12/12/11 04:13 AM

I'm sure the gun is up to the pressures, just that 62,000psi seems a mite high for a double rifle, when folks seem more interested in sub 50,000psi loadings.

As mentioned, the use of appropriate powders will eliminate pressure excursions due to heat.

As Jeff noted, a simple re-chamber (hmmmmmmm - regulation) to the improved variety reduces back thrust to virtually nothing, the chamber walls preventing it's rearward thrust.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DUGABOY1
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: DarylS]
      #197975 - 28/12/11 01:02 PM

Daryl, I have both of those books, and have always been a fan of P.O. Akley, and his so-called improved cartridges. As you say his cases did reduce reverse thrust of the case on the breech face. This also gave more speed without increasing chamber pressures beyond limits of the rifle. He also realized that most rifles could stand a lot more pressure with the improved case than with the standard case.

In the rifles he worked with they all had very strong extractor power, so the cases, though they gripped the chamber walls better the extractors were up to the task. This is where the AI cases or any straight case high pressure cartridge have a problem in the double rifle. The double rifle depends on the case shape to make the extractors work at their best. They depend on the low pressure to reduce reverse thrust, and the taper in the case to make extraction/ejection easier. The tapered case has only to move a couple of thousands of an inch to be completely free of the chamber walls. This works because the first couple of thousands of the extractor movement is the place where the extractor has the most power. With the tapered case the case is free of the chamber walls by the time the ejectors are hammered not hindering extraction, or ejection.

The actions are made to stand factory pressures of the cartridge the factory chambers the double for. However, if that pressure is in a flanged case the extractor has a very large surface with which to start that high pressure case out of the chamber, or double with both barrels being extracted. With a rimless/belted rimless cartridge the extractors are tiny spring loaded pawls that are nowhere near as strong as the extractor for a flanged case. This is then a compounded power/strength/case shape problem that, IMO, will sooner or later show its ugly head. I predict it will happen when it is least wanted!

IMO the off face condition in double rifle is caused more by poor care and lubrication of the lock-up mating surfaces than chamber pressure! The old tapered low pressure cartridges that were designed for double rifles will always be the best choice IMO!
..............................................................

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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DarylS
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #198003 - 29/12/11 07:17 AM

I see your points & reasononing, Dugaboy. As to the normal extractors purchase on a large rim as opposed to the small pawl of a rimless design - point well taken.

As to the straighter sided case shape causing problems at some point if a weak extraction rifle, I still see .005" to .010" taper per side as being quite enough due to the additional .001" contraction of the brass all the way around.

I've tested the extraction of a .257 IMP case in a Mauser bolt rifle that had NO extractor- back in 1978. The rounds fell from the chamber when the muzzle was raised. There had been no primary extraction. I've since (last year) checked that initial test of extractor removed with both a 9.3x62 and my .375/06IMP with identical results. In the 9.3x62 test, the case matched a normal Ackley Imp. case with .009" taper per side in my factory chambered Mauser rifle, while my .375/06IMP has even less taper, only .005" per side. In both, the rounds fell from the chamber when no primary extraction was used (no extractors). This showed me, they'd probably work well in any rifle with poor extraction.

As to pressures developed,I can only speak to velocities. The 9.3x62 runs 2,519fps with 286gr. Normas and 2,675 fps with 270 Speers. My .375 does 2,740fps with 270gr. TSX and 2,470fps with 4 different makes of 300's. I submit pressures "are up there". None of these rifles has expanded a primer pocket in firing these loads, many times each.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DUGABOY1
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Re: 300 H&H as a double round [Re: DarylS]
      #198112 - 30/12/11 09:50 AM

Some good thoughts Daryl!

..................................>>>===(x)===>

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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