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Antlers
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Loc: Alaska
DGX Performance on my Buff
      #195269 - 29/11/11 03:33 PM

As requested, this is a copy of my report posted on AR:

I recently returned from Zim after my first safari. I hunted with Charlton McCallum Safaris and you can see my hunt report on the Hunting Reports – Africa forum. I used Hornady’s 400gr DGS on the elephant and their 400gr DGX on the buff. The DGS performed well, but surprisingly (to me, anyway) the DGX came apart and did not penetrate as well as expected. I hit the buff with the first shot (the second shot was a miss). The bullet certainly killed efficiently, but would it the next time?

This is only one bullet and anyone with experience knows sometimes bullets do weird things. However, as much hype as this bullet is getting on the shows right now, I felt obligated to report to my compadres on this instance.

The shot was at 35yds and the load chrono’s at 2070fps. On a quartering-to shot, the bullet broke the on-shoulder and passed through both lungs. The first post mortem surprise was that it didn’t penetrate the offside ribs – it was clear that the bullet had struck a rib in line with where you would have expected – behind the off- shoulder, but the bullet was not there, and it did not do substantial damage to the rib. I had a bounty on the bullet and the guys spent a lot of time searching – even searching through the stomach contents. We found a longish piece of jacket in one lung and another embedded in the abraded surface of the offside rib. The crew could not find any more of the bullet during the recovery.





The next day one of the guys approached us and handed me both parts, noting that they had been found in the “chest meat”. It appears from the flattened surface of the lead core that this struck the rib.

Now, these bullets shoot very well in my double and believe me when I say that I do not relish the thought of finding another soft load that regulates as well; however, based on this performance I will feel compelled to try other bullets – at least for thick-skinned DG.

Edited by Antlers (29/11/11 03:37 PM)


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tophet1
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: Antlers]
      #195272 - 29/11/11 04:07 PM

I wouldn't be too down on that performance. It killed your buff with one shot and you said it shoots well in your rifle . In fact you have two projectiles there tearing up your quarry.

After 40 years of hunting I prefer my projectiles to 'come apart' in-side the animal. An animal can't breath or do much if its chest is full of blood. IMO I think a lot of this 'full penetration and maximum weight retention that is necessary for a projectile to be successful' is only a current fad supported by certain manufacturers.

Thank you for posting.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: tophet1]
      #195278 - 29/11/11 05:24 PM

If the ammo shoots in your rifle, and you have had success with it so far, no real reason to discontinue.

However I would not choose that ammo myself especially slipping its core like that. And not Hornady bullets. Are they supposed to be bonded cores?

However just one example so far. No ammo will perform perfectly every time.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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93mouse
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: NitroX]
      #195282 - 29/11/11 05:58 PM

The following is just a hearsay and I am selling it just as I bought it.

A friend of mine was sharing a camp in Zim (Save - Brooklands) with an US hunter that shot a Buff quartering towards him with a said bullet in .485 Lott. Shot was right on the point of a shoulder toward opposite hind leg. Bullet totaly disintegrated upon hiting the bone on the shoulder and never made it in the boiler room. They got the Buff later on, however that guy sweared that DGX will never see a DG hunt again...


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eagle27
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: 93mouse]
      #195288 - 29/11/11 06:37 PM

Quote:

The following is just a hearsay and I am selling it just as I bought it.

A friend of mine was sharing a camp in Zim (Save - Brooklands) with an US hunter that shot a Buff quartering towards him with a said bullet in .485 Lott. Shot was right on the point of a shoulder toward opposite hind leg. Bullet totaly disintegrated upon hiting the bone on the shoulder and never made it in the boiler room. They got the Buff later on, however that guy sweared that DGX will never see a DG hunt again...




This post and the first is the reason why I prefer solids on big animals. I know it is against the grain for many but I know with a solid I can hit a buffalo on the point of the shoulder, high in the brisket, in the rear end, in the head, and in the spine and it is going to penetrate and go the distance each and every time. Every one of these shots is a killing or anchoring shot. When I hunted buffalo oh so many years ago I really knew nothing about softs and solids but I instinctively loaded the .404 up with solids and went to a slaying, it worked so well on each and everyone that got in my sights.


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500Nitro
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: eagle27]
      #195289 - 29/11/11 06:52 PM


I wouldn't use them based on that. I am surprised that they are NOT bonded core.

Take the weight away and they lose penetration.

.


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FATBOY404
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: 500Nitro]
      #195295 - 29/11/11 08:43 PM

I know what you are all saying but am of the view of Tophet1
It killed the animal and shoots well.

I am using 400 grain Kynoch's in my 404 at the moment.
Even in pigs they shed their jacket but think of how many Buff were shot with this load ?.

Having a choice I wouldn't use them but they did work.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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500Nitro
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: FATBOY404]
      #195296 - 29/11/11 08:45 PM


Fatboy

But it is when it doesn't work that the shit hits the fan.

I believe using an inferior bullet limits your options.


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SafariHunt
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: 500Nitro]
      #195302 - 29/11/11 10:12 PM

Not very good performance are you sure it wasnt a normal Interlock bullet and not a DGX sure doesnt look good it killed but that is not what I would expect maybe the interbond at those velocities would have been better ??

--------------------
"Sleeping under the African sky I can see nothing wrong with this world!"


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9.3x57
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: SafariHunt]
      #195308 - 30/11/11 12:14 AM

If I remember correctly the DGX is merely a copper-washed steel jacketed bullet. Has a corelock of some sort, likely a similar lock to the Interlock but that bullet has never been known to stay together like a TSX or something anyhow.

Also, I believe the Interbond is defunct. Sad, as the ones I tested DID stay together.

Now, Hornady seems to have a goal of providing bullets at affordable prices, and they work well for 99% of the uses for which they are tossed. Personally, I like that, because overall I consider them the best bullet makers in the business due to the value and overall performance of the bullets they make. And, because I have utter confidence in them based on pre-hunt testing of their bullets. My opinion has swayed fore and aft a bit but I keep coming back to this.

Like tophet, I, too, am no big fan of the "always-stays-together" mantra we here promoted by the 3-Dollar Bullet Makers. That is, on the game we shoot, which is of course small compared to the buff here.

Having said that, in the case of the super-heavy game, and let's include buff, elephant and big grizzly/Kodiaks in there, too, a premium bullet seems to make sense, even if it might not kill as fast as a jacket-shedder...

Did I say that?

Of course, there are always FMJ's and true solids.

IIRC, I THINK {call Horny on this} that the DGX is supposed to regulate same as the Horny FMJ, which means it probably doesn't, but might be worth a chance. Antlers did you ever try the two in your rifle?

I've never tested the DGX, but Antlers, in the future, a very simple test can be set up to screen bullets before you stick them into a big critter. Testing works, and compared with a known good performer, is or can be incredibly revealing and sometimes embarrassingly shocking... Due to the dubious veracity of much Madison Avenue hype from the bullet makers, I will not hunt with a bullet I haven't tested first. For me that has screened some fracturous and worthless pills, but has also saved me a lot of $$ in demonstrating the absolutely LACK of need for so-called "Premium" bullets for my uses {deer, elk, bear}.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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bonanza
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: 9.3x57]
      #195309 - 30/11/11 01:06 AM

When you are about to pull the trigger on a trophy animal that you might have $12 - $20 thousand dollars tied up in, I'll bet on the $3 dollar bullet every time.

With that said, I whole heartily support Hornady. Hornady supports the shooting community. I know that some calibers are money looser but that's made up by others like the .308

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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9.3x57
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: bonanza]
      #195310 - 30/11/11 01:33 AM

Quote:

When you are about to pull the trigger on a trophy animal that you might have $12 - $20 thousand dollars tied up in, I'll bet on the $3 dollar bullet every time.

With that said, I whole heartily support Hornady. Hornady supports the shooting community. I know that some calibers are money looser but that's made up by others like the .308




Well said.

I would add that simple testing will prove a bullet so the 20-grand critter doesn't have to.

As for Antlers, his shooting killed the animal, and interestingly, how often do we read of multiple shots needed on buffalo.

Indeed, the old Kynoch's were known to be "fragile" compared to today's premiums, the likes of which didn't exist in the so-called "heyday" of hunting in Africa regardless of make.

There's something to be said for a bullet that breaks up a bit, tho the predictability of that break-up is the rub, isn't it...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: 9.3x57]
      #195317 - 30/11/11 04:26 AM

I don't know much about African game, never been there, but that's quite a long section of core that got spit out of the jacket as the bullet turned/spun (note long chunk of jacket indicating turning) - having considerable weight & probably still good speed as it went through the lungs, but was too soft, material wise, to go through the rib & merely flattened, bounced off into the "chest meat"- somehow/must have gone between ribs, somewhere to get into the chest meat.

Judging by the amount of flattening of the non-pure lead core, it hit the rib fairly hard, hard enough to deflect and go in the 'chest meat' - how much damage did it make to both lungs? Killed quite quickly, indicating a lot of damage - that's the important stat for me. It must have had good speed going through the lungs AFTER going through the leg - that's pretty good for a non-solid cored softpoint. Would I use it again, maybe - depends on how it shoots, but going through that on-side leg sounds like good performance to me since it also holed the lungs and killed with one shot. That on-side leg bone is solid shot reserved normally for solids, isn't it?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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93mouse
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: DarylS]
      #195326 - 30/11/11 06:24 AM

Quote:

That on-side leg bone is solid shot reserved normally for solids, isn't it?




By all means - sort of a bugger with a bolt actioned rifle in calibers doing 2300-2500fps as you are stucked with the one that is in the barrel atm I'd give a DGX a sincere second though and an expanding X-type monomentals might just be the ticket.

With a double there is always the best one at hand - soft in the right and solid in the left barrel - taking in account the usual velocity frame of 2100 - 2200 a "true" well expanding soft Woodleigh type is hard to beat on a perfect side on shots. Still with constantly changing situations in the bush and possible misjudged angles I think it is fundemental for a soft to be at least a bonded one. Bullet that might shed the jacket by doing mere 2100 is rather frightening when hunting DG such as Cape Buffalo - something that doesn't have a place there. With all the worries you have on a final stalk - tiredness, heat, thirst, fatigue, tse-tse's, mopane beas...the last thing one should worry is a damn bullet - not to mention a charge situation...


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9.3x57
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: 93mouse]
      #195332 - 30/11/11 08:03 AM

Quote:

Bullet that might shed the jacket by doing mere 2100 is rather frightening when hunting DG such as Cape Buffalo




Bingo.

These are exactly the types of things that can be revealed from testing prior to working up a load or going on a hunt.

I simply do not believe the advertisements of ANY bullet makers implicitly anymore. Not that they are necessarily "lying", but the performance specifications may be different than what I think they should be. Language can be misleading. I simply ignore the ad-yap and just test them.

One of the best examples was one we posted here, of the "Premium" Remington Ultra-Corelokt 6.5/.264 bullet that absolutely blew up...right next to the regular Core-lokt bulk cheapy that performed in tests {and in my rifles exactly so on game} superbly.

Caveat emptor.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Antlers
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: 9.3x57]
      #195358 - 30/11/11 02:52 PM

I will add a few notes of response:

I tend to agree with John that this is only one bullet, and no bullet will act appropriately all the time. The bullet shoots very well in my double and I had difficulty finding one that did (the rifle was regulated with Hornady's discontinued 400gr RN)- I tried A-frames and Woolieghs as well- there currently aren't alot of other options. The Woodies shot pretty good, but not as good as the DGX. I shot this combo ALOT in prepping for the safari and have a great deal of confidence that I can put the bullet where I want out to 75yds off hand and 125yds off the sticks.

I am 100% positive the bullet was recent production DGX, not an Interlock. The DGX is not a bonded bullet.

Regarding 93Mouse's post - My PH Buzz Charlton was very disappointed in the performance and noted that the DGX's reputation on DG among several PH's was sketchy.

From one perspective, it will probably be a long spell before I shoot any thick-skinned DG, and I think the bullet will probably do just fine on thin-skinned DG. I will probably use it on brown bear next Spring, but may load a solid in the left barrel.

--------------------
Antlers
Double Rifle Shooters Society
Heym 450/400 3"


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bonanza
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: Antlers]
      #195377 - 30/11/11 10:51 PM

"I hit the buff with the first shot (the second shot was a miss)."

With my Wildebeest I hit on the first shot but did not kill. I dropped a round in the right bbl and after a short track I took a shot and either missed or hit a twig, I quickly moved my finger to the back trigger and fired the left bbl, dead.

I mention this because it's not shame to say "I missed". Hunt long enough and it will happen.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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Jim_A
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: bonanza]
      #195450 - 01/12/11 02:25 PM

I have had good luck with both the DGS and DGX. I used the DGX on buffalo and recovered the bullet in the off shoulder, just under the skin. The shot was about 25-30 yards with a .416 Rigby. I did shoot the buff a second time at 50 yards as it was going down and it was a complete pass through. Both shots were through the shoulder.

I used the DGS for elephant. The first shot was side brain at 15 yards and that bullet was recovered from under the skin on the off side. I actually slipped the bullet in the empty case and you couldn't tell it had been fired. My second shot was through the bottom of his chest when he rolled over from the first shot. This shot entered the bottom of his heart and came out the top but after that I couldn't tell were it went. I should mention that this was a .470 NE and this load shot extremely well in my Krieghoff double.

I realize that a single instance of great performance may not be a reliable indicator of the product as a whole, but on the other hand, neither does a single instance of seperation. I will use both the DGS and the DGX in the future.

--------------------
DRSS


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Antlers
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: Jim_A]
      #195453 - 01/12/11 04:40 PM

I used the DGS on my tuskless and it performed very well - about 40" of penetration with only a little of oozing of the core from the base.





No complaints.

--------------------
Antlers
Double Rifle Shooters Society
Heym 450/400 3"


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tophet1
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: Antlers]
      #195455 - 01/12/11 04:51 PM

The DGS factory Hornady ammo shoots extremely accurately in my .416 Rigby and if I ever get the chance, I would use it on the largest game.

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500Nitro
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: tophet1]
      #195456 - 01/12/11 04:59 PM


Oozing from a solid is not a problem, the lead has to go somewhere !!! LOL


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Maddog
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: 500Nitro]
      #197056 - 18/12/11 03:16 AM

My son and I used the DGX and DGS on our trip to Zim, last summer. He used factory loads and I used handloads. We were both shooting 375 H&H mag. Both of our cow cape buffs were one shot kills with the DGX. The DGS bullets did very well on both the hippo and tuskless ele. I would definately use both again.


Maddog


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HogPilot
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: Maddog]
      #197094 - 18/12/11 08:48 AM

This same bullet was discussed over on AR. I am a proponent of the TSX for almost all expanding bullet needs. Many refuse to shoot the TSX in double rifles because of opinions of mono-metal bullets and the effects on double rifle barrels. I have always suggested this is more of an issue with the old Barnes X bullet without the grooves but not an issue with the TSX and the pressure relief grooves that act in the same manner as the bore rider design. The TSX is undersized by .0005 to .001 to aid in pressure reduction as well.

There is a long running bullet performance thread on AR, (over 200 pages now) that encompasses a staggering amount of data. One of the subjects on this thread is barrel strain of the different types of bullets and loads. Until recently, the TSX bullet had only been tested in a 350gr .458. This data showed the TSX to have lower barrel strain than many of the universally considered "SAFE" bullets for double rifles. But without testing a full sized TSX, speculation abounded.

A couple of weeks ago, the gentleman running the thread finally got around to testing the 450gr and 500gr TSX in comparison to the "SAFE" bullets. I'm happy to report that even though the TSX was a bit higher in barrel strain than the benchmark bullet (Woodleigh Soft), it was significantly lower in barrel strain than the Hornady DGS. The point being that the TSX produces LESS barrel strain than the bullet the manufacturer is using to regulate the double rifle with. If that is the case, and it is, then the TSX has to be "MORE SAFE" than the bullet being used to regulate the rifle with in the first place.

Many PH's will tell you that the DGX bullet is disappointing (some say dangerous) in DG situations. Some will put their name to that statement in public and many others will only say it in private as sponsorships are at stake. I've heard it from enough of them that I'll never use the DGX on any DG hunt. The TSX is a much superior bullet anyway and is safe to shoot in modern doubles.

There are some other, newer bullets on the market as well that can be considered reliable, such as the CEB Non-Cons, Northforks, and GSC's. Too many to choose from than to take a chance with an iffy bullet.

This business of "It killed the animal so it worked" is fine on Whitetails and the like but doesn't quite work in all instances on something like a Cape Buffalo. Sort of like "A 22LR will kill someone" is true but when talking about the case of a criminal, jacked up on adrenalin and meth, that weighs 300 lbs, has a knife in his hand, and is intent on hurting you or a family member, I'll just bet that 22LR will not be your weapon of choice at that moment. DG hunting is a different game altogether and you need that bullet to give exceptional, reliable, predictable performance every time. There are enough questions about the DGX bullet that I'll spend the extra $1.50 per bullet to get the job done right. One of the very popular DVD's on the market right now, show an industry insider who shoots a "Big Bull" with the DGX only to have it run off and charge the party later, knocking the PH down. I heard from one of the PH's I hunt with that the PH in question told the hunter, after they finally got the buff down, to "test these bullets elsewhere, this is for real out here".

Edited by HogPilot (18/12/11 08:49 AM)


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FATBOY404
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Re: DGX Performance on my Buff [Re: HogPilot]
      #197102 - 18/12/11 09:41 AM

Interesting. Geoff Macdonald says something similar with his "Hydro's" producing less pressure than say his traditional FMJ. As to OSR he believes it comes down to barrel tensile strength not barrel thickness. A mate of mine is a Barnes man and loves the TSX. His last trip to Africa with the 458 Lott loaded with 500 grain TSX's. He shot a buff and all was ok. He then shot a Waterbuck with this load and the bullet didn't open up nor did it exit. My point is if you shoot enough animals all bullets will have anomalies.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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